EFI Controller FAQ! Harley EFI & Harley Carb Discuss EFI Controller FAQ! in the Harley Tech & Harley How-to forums; Discuss, debate and ask questions about EFI Controllers here. If you visit the board on a regular basis you will notice that almost on a daily basis questions are asked ...

[unfknblvbl]

Discuss, debate and ask questions about EFI Controllers here. If you visit the board on a regular basis you will notice that almost on a daily basis questions are asked to the tune of: Do I really need one? Which one is better? Well I thought they said this. If I makes these changes to my bike and don't add and EFI controller what will happen?

We all get the picture at what I'm getting at. No fault to anyone, that's what the board is for, but I think if we can centralize this and keep it stuck at the top it may save someone some time,can be used as a quick reference and a good tool for information period.

As time allows and I don't get fed up with my internet connection (painfully slow cable connection that is worse than dial-up) I will scour the board and move/merge posts to this thread.

Like I said this is not AIMed (like that?) at anyone.

Let's see how this works out. Please feel free to post reference's, articles, how to's, etc here also.

[unclepsycho]

way kewl idea.

always thinking aint ya. ....good job.

[unfknblvbl]

Do I really need an EFI Controller?

Originally Posted by mleto

Good afternoon,

I live in beautiful Key West, Florida, and have an '07 Fatboy. I recently installed an Arlin Ness Big Sucker and BUB Jug Huggers Exhaust. I'm waiting on a RiddMaxx EFI controller as it's back ordered. I couldn't wait and took the bike for a spin and it ran great. I then took it for a longer ride up the Keys, opened it up, and the bike ran great again, with a very slight popping or back firing when decellerating. Rode bike around town and the temperature never went above 225 and it still ran great. I checked the plugs and they still look fine. I plan to install the RiddMaxx when I receive it, to see if the bike runs any differently, but it just makes me wonder if I really need the EFI Controller???

Originally Posted by Fenderplayer

Rarely do you not need to remap your EFI when you upgrade your intake & exhaust. Stock engines run lean usually, and more airflow tends to make it run leaner. You can cause damage to the engine if you run too lean. If you think you don't need to remap- I'll be surprised if you don't, you should get to a tuner or a dealer and at least measure the AFR.

Originally Posted by Likemlouder

YES
just because it is running does not mean it is ok. lean conditions will kill your bike in the end. all the new bikes are as lean as they can safely run from the factory (EPA) install the tuner with a proper map and you will see a significant diffrence in performance. and your engine will live to tell the story

[unfknblvbl]

A question on remapping after Screamin' Eagle heavy breather install.

Originally Posted by RoadKingPolice

Hello fellow riders, I'm new here; hope I'm posting in the correct section of this forum - please forgive me if I'm not... Question: Is mapping required when adding a screamin eagle heavy breather air-intake to a 2008 Road King? I have this vague recollection that i read in AIM that mapping might not be required when changing air-intake or exhaust systems on 2008 touring models(?). Thanks & ride safe, RKP

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Hi Road

It might not be needed but it's well known that the motors come very lean from the factory so if you have any doubt about the A/F mixture either get it checked by your fav shop or do a preliminary plug test yourself..

Do you know how.?

Have you added the A-C yet.?

Does it exhibit any symptoms of possible lean mix..?

Originally Posted by RoadKingPolice

Many thanks F-R for your kind response... no, SE heavy breather not installed yet. I understand what you mean by lean mixture coming from the factory. Maybe best thing to do is have the SE HB installed at local H-D shop and see how it's running before 'investing' in the the mapping. Gratefully, RKP

Originally Posted by tommyglide

Mr King, Frisco is correct in saying they are exceptionally lean from the factory. I have an 07 Electra Glide and last summer installed some good pipes, the SA air breather and the factory download. Still very lean, but provided phenomenal fuel economy. Well, so does Volkswagen. I'm thinking the dealership will sell you the download regardless, that's what they do, but there are a variety of relatively inexpensive options that bear consideration and that specifically address the lean condition, all to your benefit.

Originally Posted by tommyglide

Hey Road King, I found your answer in the Oct issue of AIM. They are suggesting they have found minor changes on the 07s and 08s will be somewhat compensated for by the ECM. 06 and earlier models will not.

Originally Posted by SuperGlide08

I also just found that article on the automatic adjustments on 07 and 08 models October issue, pg 30. "Baffled no more" It also states minor changes??? whats considered "minor changes" I have a 08 Dyna SG, I just put on VH Slip on's no problem. My next part is the SE Heavy Breather. Are these applications considered minor? I am also thinking of purchasing a EFI Tuner? But I'm gonna try it without the tuner. I will be sure to get back to everyone.

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Hey Super

These changes are usually considered minor but they often do require A/F adjustments,,, certainly almost always on carb sickles so it's not a stretch to guess your EFI motor might also need to adjust itself or be adjusted..

Good Man--- do the job then decide if a tuner//re-map is necessary..

Popping, crackling, pinging, slow response at speed will surely get your notice..
Also----
The high-speed plug check is universal and waaay easy and repeatable at low speed..

Originally Posted by SuperGlide08

Thanks Senior Frisco, for the review and things to look out for, I appreciate the responce. What is the high speed plug check? Like I said I will get back too everyone on my SE HB application, to let everybody know if I had to go the EFI Tuner way or not. Check out my ride, I posted it on my profile.

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Hey Super

I got your visitor message and sent you an e mail explaining the check,, I didn't see your last post here yet, heck,,,,, I'll just post it here too..

The test is done this way..
Get out on the highway and do about 80+ for about 15 miles.. Do Not fluctuate RPM's,, try to find a road and time of day to do this without getting a ticket..

Look ahead for a spot/exit etc. to pull over safely then pull in clutch (dis-engage) and Switch Off ignition at the SAME time.. DO Not shift gears or ANYTHING.. Just simply coast and pull over to park..
Get out your gloves and a wrench to pull your plugs..
What you will see is a Snapshot of your A/F mixture at the steady RPM that you were going..
If the porcelain is snow white (what the EPA wants) your A/F is very lean.. Even though the newer sickles like yours are said to be correct at what is called a "lean burn" A/F mixture, I and many others dis-agree.. If it is sooo good then why are soo many guys finding ways to re-adjust it..?!
A lean Mix is a lean Mix and that can cause damage and loss of performance..
A good color is gray to light brown..
There are other things to look for and ways to interpret the plug colors but this will get you a ball-park idea how your A/F mix is..
Then if you choose you can ride home at a lower RPM (steady if you can) to get an idea what your lower RPM mixture is like..
This works on all carbs and EFI, doesn't matter,, Mixture is mixture..
Then it'll be up to you to do something about it if you so choose..

Have a ball

Originally Posted by unclepsycho

Hay Frisco,

My grandpa was a mechanic and taught me a few things; one of which was that a high speed test on the engine can also be performed at a lower speed by staying in a lower gear and run the rpm's up to where they would be at the higher speed. the only real difference there would be that the wind resistance and pull on the motor from the tranny would not be exactly the same. He did this because all he had was narrow back roads to drive on, (and probably to keep from getting tickets too).
first ya gotta know what rpm the motor is running at 80+.
Do you think a the test like this would be as accurate at a lower speed.? My brain tells me that a lower speed would then takeaway the "high speed" part of the high speed-test.

of course high speed suspension and gear train tests can only be done at the same high speed that the problem is manifesting itself.

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Hey Unc & Tommy

Yes yes & yes..
It is the high RPM's you're looking for in a H-S test but all conditions do affect results..
I do think a High-spd test done at high speed is best cuz real world results are best under real world conditions..
And Yes UNc,,,,,, what fun is a High-spd test at Low spd,,,,,, jeeeeeze..!

I myself have done the "high-spd" test at lower speeds (with high R's) when it just wasn't practical or timely etc. and I was fine with what I observed because I simply wanted a ball-park read..

However remember,, there are Low-spd jets and/or maps (and throttle positions) to consider so a Low-Spd (slow-spd) test is valuable for running the slow (lower) thru town RPM's..

Of course you know that for the the Mik it is throttle position you're testing Not RPM's..

Originally Posted by unclepsycho

Frisco

Thanks, I guess it would be called a "high-rpm" test !! but real world conditions give the best real world results.

I just got back from a 50 mile blast down the road on th 06 ultra. in 5th gear 80 mph is 3200 rpm. I didnt check any other speeds or rpm's, just went cruizin' to the local H-D to get a new pair of boots.... gotta do my part to help thier ecomony. I ordered another pair for work. I could get Redwings, but that dont help out HD any. and I think the HD boots are just fine for work! Been wearing them for the last 3 years.

[unfknblvbl]

Another question on remapping and some different insight.

Originally Posted by Midnight Rider80

I am considering a SE Heavy Breather K&N type intake on an otherwise new and totally stock 09 Fatbob. I like the look and I also like the way extra room is available to my right leg by losing the standard Dyna air cleaner. My dealer had my bike and a SE Fatbob with the 110 motor and SE intake, so I could try out the seat positions. My question is this, if I switch the intake I know I need to either remap the ECU or upgrade to a PC III , so which will net me more performance? Also I have no plans to change mufflers at this time, so will I get any gain with just the HB intake? Is any other fuel management unit a better choice? SERT, Vance hines, what about the new wireless systems?
Any help or advice would be great before spending $700 or $800.
Thanks in advance. MR80

Originally Posted by JCourneyaP

You should not have to do any flashing of your sytem if you just upgrade the intake. Your current "As Is" computer should compensate for it.

I would hold off getting any PC, Fule Pack, or other spendy downloads until you decide to OTS the stock pipes. For now save your money.

As far as what program "Product" will give you the best numbers.. "I do not Know". Depends on what you are running in combination with the SE intake. Upgrading exhaust in the future yes? You plan on any other mods?

We have folks on this site running various setups. Some claim they are great some say they suck. I guess you would need to run it on the dyno before and afterwards to get a somewhat true reading. I have not seen enough numbers or folks speaking up to say which computer flash/Download is better.

Anyone???

[unfknblvbl]

Fuelpak vs. DynoJet PC and Cobra question

Originally Posted by pono60

i'm about to get the v&h 2-1 big radius,and ness big sucker stage 1 on my bike.the only thing i'm not sure of is whether to get the fuel pack by vance & hines, or the power commander by dynojet.if this were a championship boxing match,who would win this bout???

Originally Posted by shovelmike

Either unit will do a suitable job of allowing you to add more fuel to the mix. The Power Commander has the added advantage of allowing you to change the ignition curve as well if needed. If you don't plan any further modifications it is moot point. Both are user friendly.
Just comes down to what future plans are.

Originally Posted by Buzz Kanter

How does the Cobra fuel system work and compare to the others?

Originally Posted by shovelmike

Wow... thanks, Pono, but I don't know everything. I've just been around on this Earth enough years to learn some things...many by trial and error (those errors get embarrassing and sometimes expensive).

Buzz: From what I read about the Cobra unit it plugs in between the ECM and the injector instead of piggybacking between the loom and ECM as PC III. Cobra is good for adding fuel when changing pipes and Air filter, whereas PC III can subtract fuel in some cells if needed (compared to factory map) and does so in maps for some equipment combinations. (I'm not an expert..learning as I go along like everyone else.

Originally Posted by GrayRider

I'm a big fan of any DFO, particularly for minor mods. They're easy to install, simple to use and all three circuits can easily be adjusted with just a screwdriver. The SERT and PC are much more complicated.

Having said that, I wish my Road King had a Mikuni like my Wide Glide.

I hate fuel injection.

[unfknblvbl]

Discussion of an AIM article and questions regarding fuel management systems

Originally Posted by Spade5

I have an 07 Wide Glide that is bone stock and I am very happy with it. I have no issues with the performance and am hesitant to change anything.

In the April issue there was an install article on page 186 about installing the S&S kit on a stock engine to see the power gains. I had not doubt the kit was good and would increase power but the thing that jumped out at me was nothing was done to adjust the fuel mixture.

I have always been under the impression that the HD system only really uses the 02 sensors at idle and and steady cruising. Basically it doesn't adjust much except for the EPA requirements. I believe the article said that the ECM would adapt to the new air cleaner and or pipes after 15 minutes of running time which to me is just dead opposite of what I and others have accepted about the HD system.

This makes me wonder why HD does the stage one download if the system can adjust itself. My guess is the S&S would flow at least as much additional air as the Stage 1 so what is the real deal?

I had been thinking about installing the S&S kit but did not know where to go with a fuel injection controller. I am happy with the bike in stock form and don't really need more power but would not mind a little better exhaust sound and I like the look of the S&S A/C cover.

Does anyone know the straight scoop on this?

Originally Posted by hdnt1550

I think the stock ecm without a down load will only re tune to the stock settings and the bike will always run lean just like a stock bike.

Originally Posted by Cruiser85257

Something is definitely not right about the article. I don't think there is not one single owner who has not had this experience. He goes to the dealer to get a stage one. That's an installation of an after market air kit and different exhaust. Either he has the dealer do it or inquires about having it done. The next thing the dealer does is recommend some sort of fuel mngt system. Usually a stage one download for the ECU, or some other after market system. Recommending the system because they tell you the air kit will further lean the Bike, which is running lean to begin with.

Now if the ECU truely adjusts itself as the article implies then why is it such a well guarded secret that the Moco doesn't tell it's Tech people working in the Dealerships? I have 5 dealerships in my area. Not one single person working for them has ever told me, "don't worry about a fuel mngt system, the Bike will adjust itslef".

No, what I hear instead is buy this unit for $500 and spend another 4 hours of labor having the bike tuned. Why is this necessary if the unit can tune itself?

Originally Posted by Motorman7

I have the same concerns also. I have looked at various sources and what i came back with is the simple fact that if the air intake is greater and everything else is unchanged then the bike will run leaner. When you add an exhaust change to the mix and the exhaust lets the engine breathe better, that is more air out as well as in, this adds to the leaner mixture in the engine.
My Electrcal Diagnostics Manual only states that the O2 sensors monitor the exhaust and adjust the fuel/air mix accordingly. The ECM is coded with certain parameters and apply to stock bikes only. When the part is not stock any longer then the ECM will not react to wider increases or decreases only those set at the factory for air intake and exhaust flow. If this was not the case and the ECM could adapt or "learn" to a wider selection of readings then why the stage 1 downloads and why the need for SERT and other ECM replacements.
It even states in catalogs that the engine will run leaner when you purchase a certain exhaust or air cleaner over the stock unit.
It sounds like a marketing ploy on selling aftermarket air cleaners to say the bike will self adjust. Harley engineers spend a lot of time getting the ECM to run under various circumstances, but this is with stock components. They have no way of knowing what aftermarket device will be added, and will probably tell you proceed at your own risk.
If much air flow is altered to the stock engine, then it would be prudent to look into an aftermarket ECM that is adjustable for air flow changes made.

Originally Posted by Spade5

I believe the S&S site recommends a fuel management system.

Originally Posted by TrainMan

I was wondering about this article as well. I just purchased an 07 Night Train and have not had the opportunity to ride yet (the great spring weather !!) anyway it has Vance and Hines Big Radius pipes and I believe the stock A/C. I have pulled the plugs and they are definatley not looking like the bike is running lean. As far as I know the dealer just installed the pipes according to the work order that I got with the bike (previous owner installed the pipes) the milage that was indicated at that time was around 1100, the bike had been driven as the milage when I bought it was 3500. My question is, this bike seems to be running rich? Should I look at putting on a stage 1 A/C and then doing the download. This fuel injection thing is kinda confusing.

[FlamEd]

I got an 08 FLHRSE4 110 I've beat my and the ol misses head against the wall tryin to find the size injectors in this set-up part #27609-01B. Anybody point me else where to find. I've lokked in HD 3 parts man., Tech Guide from Donny, SE catalogs WTF?? any body help. The bikes runnin lean and the Pro-Tuner set-up needs the size.

[RCS]

Check Donny's latest article in AIM, May issue.
RCS

[FlamEd]

OK I haven't gotten this sissue yet just waiting. His books are good as well as the articles. Keep pushin wind!