Why Ethanol?

[Wrightturn]

Hey Ken,

I have zero experience with nitro other than burning eyes from being in the pits when top fuel guys were racing. My alcohol experience is limited to a converted VW in 1974. The changes were limited to the carb and heads and the parts were from Brazil. The alcohol was from North Carolina feed corn.
It was hard to start . The car had avg of 32mpg on gas and 17mpg on alcohol. The 10 gal tank made carrying spare tanks a pain since alcohol was not readily available. I didn`t have to tell the farmer how to make it. He had a permit to make the alcohol and eventualy bought the car. I heard he pulled the engine and made some sort of tractor with it.
I helped put an RJ turbo on a KZ900. Nobody knew how much boost to run so we found out how much Kawasaki heads cost the hard way. Scary to ride.
I have ridden one bagger with nitous. Fun but expensive.

Would the petroleum industry do that ? Of course ! You want high octane they will sell you high octane. Remember water vapor will raise the octane of the fuel charge but we aint gonna go faster until we seperate the stuff into H and 0.

[frisco-rigid]

Ooh Boy---

Ken, your understanding is incorrect..
Oxygen does not burn and it is not the power in gas or anything else that burns..
Oxygen is the catalyst, without it most flammable things won't burn..
Try to light oxygen alone,, you'll see..

In automotive gasoline it is the hydrocarbons (hydrogen) that supplies the power.. Oxygenated additives/fuels (ethanol, methanol, MTBE, etc.) generally have less actual BTU's per gallon hence less power because they contain less hydrocarbons to oxygenate in their weight/density.. Now---- those extra oxygen molecules do assist the burn but they replace the actual "power" molecules (hydrocarbons) with their density.. 1 gallon is only 1 gallon, it contains only hydrocarbons (power) or say,, 95% hydrocarbons and 5% "other"
Adding 80 proof whiskey to 101 proof whiskey, ah, you know, less BTU's so to speak..!!

That's why, even though OUR Gas has the same octane rating, it has less power.. That is because of more ethanol and other Oxygenates being added..

A few years ago automotive gas had 125,000 BTU's per gallon, now it has 120,000 BTU's per gallon..
Some folk do get more mileage outa "regular" because there are less oxygenates (to increase octane) to dilute the mix..

[evoKENevo]

Ooh Boy---

Frisco, YOUR understanding IS correct.

I did read somewhere that oxygen is what burns/combusts,etc..and that fuel is just the catalyst. That and after reading your post I called a nurse at the VA hosp. to confirm (which she did) that oxygen DOES burn/combust..me figuring that with all the " no smoking oxygen in use" signs around there, she and/or they would have SOME clue...obviously not !!

Your post and overall knowledge,etc,just made too much sense to minimize. So I went a couple of steps further...proving THEM (as well as myself) WRONG via Wikipedia and an AIM article by Donny (I'd filed away) relative to the above..not the other article mentioned.

According to Wikipedia (in my words) oxygen does PROMOTE the RAPID combustion of a given fuel...but only as the oxident/catalyst VS the fuel itself.

In Donnie's article he discusses the properties of Nitrous (not Nitro like other article) noting that like Nitro..Nitrous has a higher oxygen % content than gasoline. So a fatter AFR of Nitrous can be run than with gasoline (noting air does not = oxygen)..thus more FUEL to burn/combust on each ign.stroke..and more power as a result.

All of which (highly simplified/condensed here) along with your input, definately clears up a few conflicts I've had in "mymind" on the subject,since reading the other stuff...that I shoulda/woulda but did'nt confirm/verify,etc...even though it did seem "odd"to me

Sorry for the bum info brought to the table...and thanks for bringing it to my and others attention here...noting (a little asscover)
my other post did begin with.."my LIMITED understanding of the stuff starts with the idea that"...and so on.

Yeah and...boy,is that nurse gonna get an ear-full next time I see her there !!

[evoKENevo]

Hey,Wright,frisco and/or whom it may concern/interest

Up 'til reading the article I mentioned claiming that oxygen was what's combusted/exploded I was (and am back to) understanding that fuel is what's combusting/exploding..and like any fire you need 3 things..fuel,heat & oxygen..and of course in our engines fuel= gas...ignition/compression = heat...
and air = a given % of the oxygen reguired at the rate of aprox 15 parts of AIR for every 1 part of GAS --more or less depending on weither you're idling,acellerating,cruising as well as your altitude,..."blah - blah - blah"...W/O getting into CR, ignition timing/advance,etc here. The little (?) understanding
of which,has worked pretty well for me over the years.

Now,though..with the "awakening" from the last few posts here...I just had to follow-up on it all, just a little more....

Can you actually burn oxygen.?? Nope..but for example here - if you light a match (fuel) in a room with average air/oxygen (catalyst) content you just get a small flame from the match (fuel) that's burning. Now..if you light the same kind of match (fuel) in let's say a hospital room with a much denser concentration of oxygen/air (catalyst) "BOOM" the AFR in there EXPLODES around you !! So,yeah..although oxygen is not the fuel that's actually feeding the fire,it certainly plays a large part in getting the most energy/power out of whatever fuel we're burning/combusting..

So.OK...yesterday's gas had more BTUs,etc...thus even a hotter & more powerful BOOM than today's fuels. But, are those old fuels still readilly available ? Nope...instead we have fuels with less BTUs and less power - thanks (?) to additives/alternatives like Ethanol...that're also harder/slower to ignite/combust even in the lowest octane RATED fuels...noting additives to boost octane (which Ethanol is one of) ONLY serve to make it even harder/slower to ignite/combust...especially in engines that are'nt even close to the pre-ignition/detonation issues,that they're formulated/intended for...which in turn = even LESS power, performance and mileage,
at a HIGHER cost...for what ???.

More & more stringent/strangeling EPA regulations...that's what for !! Lean-out engines to reduce pollution (making them run hotter than they should) on cleaner burning fuels (in theory anyhow)...and (counter productive) reduce mileage and increase consumption (inadvertently putting that much more whatever into the atmosphere) while reducing the world's supply of petro-fuels increasing the demand (even higher prices) and creating at least a perceived need to produce alternative fuels (ethanol-etc.) at even a higher cost...all at the hands of a bunch of "elected-officals",etc, who have'nt a clue and/or do have alternative ($$$$) motives,of their own.

And,of course.."the beat goes on, and the beat goes on"...right on down the line.

[Wrightturn]

Hey Ken,

This is what we get when we let govt. take care of us. A sstudy of emission devices will demonstate how smart they are. How much smog have we reduced ? Granted the auto industry wouldn`t do anything unless the govt kicked them.
The first pcv valve appeared on a US engine in 1968. It was invented in 1930.
Know what I mean.

[evoKENevo]

Yeah Wright..I know exactly what you mean.
Have you ever seen the movie "Tucker" ? It's a great story about how under-handed Gov.Officals & Ind. Leaders under-handedly scratched each others backs to under-mine the production of a car that was ahead of it's time..and others just were'nt prepared to compete with...business as usual !!! Yeah,and, you can bet your last dollar there's just as much if not more of that still going on..with an untold number of tech advances falling between the cracks for the same reason...no end !!