Engine Issue #3 - Harley Forum

KJOGlide · #1 11-03-2008, 10:44 PM

Okay, I'm new to this forum, but I need some objective advice. Please bear with me as this may get a little long.

This is my story, and I'm sticking to it.

2001 FLHTCUI

Rebuild #1...

Bike had 56K on it. Had never been suggested by my servicing dealer to have the chain tensioners checked. They wore out, took out the oil pump from debris I was told, so I decided to have the big bore kit installed while it was partially coming apart anyway.
Short list of parts used,oil pump, cam support plate, cam chain tensioners, sprockets, screaming eagle CNC ported heads, screaming eagle HTCC pistons, 251 cams.

All the above work performed by a local HD dealer.

Rebuild #2...

After 10K miles (66K on bike), had a lifter failure at highway speeds. Lifter took out the cases. Had to replace cases, cams, cam support plate, oil pump, and chain tensioners.

Same HD dealer that did it the first time did the above work.

Rebuild #3....

After 12K miles (78K on bike), oil pump failed. Toasted the cylinders, pistons, and now there's a noise in the bottom end.

Have the bike at an independent shop this time, and am awaiting further tear down and diagnosis.

With the combination of parts used in the original build, I asked for reliability along with the extra power. Was I set up with a bad combination of parts, am I just the recipient of bad luck, or were the repairs not performed properly?

I ride the bike almost daily. The first rebuild was about two years ago, and even with the bike being in the shop for over 8 weeks in that time I put over 20K miles on it. It gets serviced every 2500 miles. I do ride it hard from time to time, but that's the exception, not the rule.

I've dumped a bunch of money in this engine already, and am about to open my wallet again.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Thanx
Kevin

Wrightturn · #2 11-04-2008, 12:06 AM

Hey KJO,

Several ways to screw up a rebuild. Poor combination of parts or lack of attention to detail during assembly . Twin Cams like all motors require attention to detail. When I have more time I will look at the combination that was used. For the moment let me share what I have found over the last 8yrs.

I would like to see the oil pump. Scuff marks that show improper alignment might have cooked the last motor. Not difficult to get it right but easy to skip the detail and get it wrong.

What head gasket thickness was used ? I have seen .030 gaskets go in an FL being used for two up heavy riding and then wonder why it runs hot. High compression can add performance but it adds heat . What ignition control was used ? What timing ?

What A/F changes were made ?

The first thing to change is what you have done. This shop didn`t deal with tensioners,lifters, and has raised doubt about care in assembly. Check the reputation of shop you are using. Beware of anyone telling you extensive dyno testing is needed. You are not trying for a radical build. Find out what parts are going to be used. I tend to use the same combinations again and again. They are not for max hp. They are reliable. No one has brought me a bike to experiment with.

Let me know what parts are going back in and I will share my opinion . This stuff can get expensive.

KJOGlide · #3 11-04-2008, 07:43 PM

Hey Wrightturn-

Thank you very much for the response.

I do have the oil pump body. It is definitely scored on one half of the pump housing. I don't know how they are installed, but if it's an issue of it possibly being off center, I could wee where that may have been an issue. Would it take 12K miles to turn into an issue, or would it depend on how far off it was in relation to the mileage it operated properly?

Not sure what the head gasket thickness would be. The HD part numbers I see on the invoice for gaskets are:

17045-99C Gasket Kit, Cam Service
16101-01 Gasket Kit

Not sure if that would help determine gasket thickness.

Assuming A/F means air fuel mixture changes, that was done by the dealer who did the original work. A race tuner was installed by them. It was not tuned on a dyno though. The shop didn't have one at that time.

So far as ignition control and timing, I have to plead ignorant, I just don't know the specifics of what they set up.

The parts that are currently in it are:

22439-00A HD SE HTCC Pistons
17378-98 Roller Rockers
17675-01B HD SE Rocker Arm Support
25121-03 HD SE251 Cams
16925-02B HD SE CNC Ported Heads

The shop where the bike is now diagnosed the oil pump as an issue. They didn't like the non adjustable push rods that were in the bike. There first course of action was to replace the oil pump & push rods. After that there was still a noise in the top end. They diagnosed and replaced the cylinders & pistons. I have those parts home with me. The pistons were definitely scored, and the cylinders are scored as well.

At this point I was told the bike was done. I picked it up and only got a few miles down the road and was not happy. The noise may have been a 10 when I dropped it off, and after the repairs it may have been an 8 at best. I don't have doubts that the parts they replaced needed to be, but they definitely didn't fix the noise I heard.

I dropped the bike back off a couple days later. Called them, and now they believe the noise is coming from the bottom end. The bike is still there, they have not started to dis-assemble it for further diagnosis. I called today and am going to pick it up tomorrow and decide what I'm going to do.

After the diagnosis they made, getting the bike back, and it not being right, I have concerns about whether it's being diagnosed, or parts are being thrown at it. Even though I do have the old parts and they were either in need or replacement or machining, the entire problem was not solved.

Thank you again for you time.

Kevin

Wrightturn · #4 11-04-2008, 09:38 PM

Hey KJO,

This would be a high compression motor with a long duration cam. It would have to be assembled with atttention to certain details. The head gasket should be at least a .040 or even a .055. The oil pump is aligned with two Evo tappet block alignment bolts while it is being torqued down. The ignition module should definitely retard timing to cool things down. I agree with adjustable push rods for this build although I most often work with cams where I won`t need them. You definitely want to richen the Af ratio for this motor to live.

Something in the back of my mind that bothers me is the tensioner failure. Since this failure the bottom end has never been opened for inspection or cleaning right ? It was and still is not factory practice to open the engine to clean out all possible metal fragments when a tensioner fails. Some very smart techs that I agree with think this is a mistake. If the noise you are hearing is not a loose comp sprocket or clutch hub bearing it may be time to do a complete tear down. The cam you are using reqires high compression to recover some of the compression lost to long duration. Not my cup of coffee.
A milder cam with lower compression would not give up much hp and would be alot easier to live with.

KJOGlide · #5 11-05-2008, 10:39 PM

Hey Wrightturn-

Once again, thank you for your time, and the information!!

The cases are actually new. They were replaced during build #2, after the lifter failure. So any debris that may have been left from the tensioner failure shouldn't be an issue.

I understand what you saying so far as the piston & cam combo not being ideal. But I have been told with the SE CNC Ported Heads these are the pistons that have to be used. Although with the track record of this build so far, I'm not sure what to believe at this point.

Guess my next questions would be, with a knowledgeable tech setting up both the mechanical side, and tuning the A/F and timing, could I expect reliability better than what I have had in the past?

Considering the $$$ just spent, I would hate to start over again, unless the current combination is such that only 10-15K miles is to be expected before there's another mechanical issue.

Again, thank you for your time and knowledge!!

Kevin

Wrightturn · #6 11-06-2008, 12:15 AM

Hey KJO,

With proper set up and tuning the bike should be far more reliable than your experience indicates. High compression engines require careful tuning to be reliable. They run hotter and must have AF set up with care. To use the parts selected you need a skilled builder. I would consider the .055 gasket and a reduction in compression. Your bike is a`2001 with the early EFI ?
The SE251 came out in 2003 . I am not sure how well matched this combo is.
Glad to hear the debri issue does not exist. I will try to reach a local builder and see if he has worked with this combination. Are you still working with the original EFI and the Se CNC heads ? I could be wrong but this may need to be sorted out.

KJOGlide · #7 11-06-2008, 08:49 PM

Hey Wrightturn-

2001 with EFI is correct. It does have the original EFI and the SE CNC Ported Heads & SE HTCC Pistons.

As I was reading your post, I saw at the heading that you are in the Orlando area. I am in the Central Florida area as well. Not sure if you do this kind of work or not, or if you have someone you would recommend.

You can PM or E-Mail me if you want.

I'm leaving town Saturday and won't be back until the middle of next week, but should have computer access while away.

Either way, I owe you a drink for all your help!!

Thank you again.

Kevin

Wrightturn · #8 11-06-2008, 09:42 PM

Hey Kevin ,

You have a PM