Running Lean .... 1200C Harley Evo Sportster Discuss Running Lean .... 1200C in the Harley Sportster & Buell forums; Hi, A quick question, my HDRCGB, eEvo Sportster Forum are under the opinion that if you change the airfilter and pipes the engine will run lean damaging your engine and ...

Hi,

A quick question, my HDRCGB, eEvo Sportster Forum are under the opinion that if you change the airfilter and pipes the engine will run lean damaging your engine and ultimately burning a hole on the piston(s).

I have tried the following routes:

K&N 1200C AIR FILTER VANCE AND HINES SLIP ON'S AND FUELPAK
RESULT ONE VERY SICK BIKE

K&N FILTER AND SLIP ONS
RESULT RAN OK BUT VERY LUMPY AND OVERRUN

SCREAMING EAGLE FILTER AND VANCE AND HINES SLIP ONS AND FUELPAK
EXRTEMELY SICK BIKE

SCREAMING EAGLE FILTER AND VANCE AND HINES SLIPS ONS
RESULT RUNS FINE...

I have run a diagnotstic check on each configuration and with the exception of the last set all have had problems.

My question is, is my set up ok or should I have the bike put on a DYNA... or as there are no fault messages, just get on and ride....??

Brigger

[Wrightturn]

Hey Brigger

Are you in the USA ? Is your bike an export model that may not have to put up with EPA restrictions ? New bikes subject to EPA restrictions are lean to begin with. Changing pipes and breather can make it worse. Just wondering what you have.

Originally Posted by Wrightturn

Hey Brigger

Are you in the USA ? Is your bike an export model that may not have to put up with EPA restrictions ? New bikes subject to EPA restrictions are lean to begin with. Changing pipes and breather can make it worse. Just wondering what you have.

United Kingdom.... land of the downtrodden....!!!

[milindh]

Just by looking at the combos you've listed I would think that you would get the best performance from the first combo (K&N filter,V&H slip ons, Fuel Pak). Thinking back to my old Evo Sportster, I think the K&N filter is less restrictive than the SE filter which would cause the engine to draw more air and therefore run leaner with the K&N. The Fuel Pak should have richened up the mixture to compensate but for some reason it set the EFI to a wrong setting. Just guessing here but I'd bet the Fuel Pak tried to set A/F mixture to a US EPA mandated level and, because of some software goofiness, screwed things up. It might have something to do with your bike being Euro spec.

This last year the EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) came down heavy on the makers of the Power Commander for giving bikers the abilities to bypass the EPA standards. Big fines and threats of closing down the whole operation. I believe this has struck the fear of God into these makers of EFI modifiers including V&H and they're digging and scratching trying to figure out ways to keep selling their A/F modifiers without violating the EPA standards which are quite lean. What do you get when you buy a late model A/F modifier like a Power Commander or a Fuel Pak? I, personally, don't know but I'd guess some versions might still have the older more performance (richer A/F ratios) oriented maps while others will try to get your A/F ratios in line with EPA standards. If I had EFI on my FXR I'd want one of the outlawed A/F modifiers just as long as I could get access to the right software mapping or a unit that you could tune manually. If I recall correctly, that notorius old outlaw Wrightturn is working on a handlebar mounted unit you can adjust as you ride the bike. Sa-weet!

In your case Brigger I'd recommend working with V&H tech support to come up with a solution. They'd be going against the EPA constrictions to get you to a good performance A/F ratio rather than the EPA lean set up. However you may have an exception here since you are European.

Good Luck

Originally Posted by milindh

Just by looking at the combos you've listed I would think that you would get the best performance from the first combo (K&N filter,V&H slip ons, Fuel Pak). Thinking back to my old Evo Sportster, I think the K&N filter is less restrictive than the SE filter which would cause the engine to draw more air and therefore run leaner with the K&N. The Fuel Pak should have richened up the mixture to compensate but for some reason it set the EFI to a wrong setting. Just guessing here but I'd bet the Fuel Pak tried to set A/F mixture to a US EPA mandated level and, because of some software goofiness, screwed things up. It might have something to do with your bike being Euro spec.

This last year the EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) came down heavy on the makers of the Power Commander for giving bikers the abilities to bypass the EPA standards. Big fines and threats of closing down the whole operation. I believe this has struck the fear of God into these makers of EFI modifiers including V&H and they're digging and scratching trying to figure out ways to keep selling their A/F modifiers without violating the EPA standards which are quite lean. What do you get when you buy a late model A/F modifier like a Power Commander or a Fuel Pak? I, personally, don't know but I'd guess some versions might still have the older more performance (richer A/F ratios) oriented maps while others will try to get your A/F ratios in line with EPA standards. If I had EFI on my FXR I'd want one of the outlawed A/F modifiers just as long as I could get access to the right software mapping or a unit that you could tune manually. If I recall correctly, that notorius old outlaw Wrightturn is working on a handlebar mounted unit you can adjust as you ride the bike. Sa-weet!

In your case Brigger I'd recommend working with V&H tech support to come up with a solution. They'd be going against the EPA constrictions to get you to a good performance A/F ratio rather than the EPA lean set up. However you may have an exception here since you are European.

Good Luck

Wow that is quite some answer and a lot to digest...! Thanks very much, with your permission I will post this on the Evo Sportster forum on the Harley Davidson Club of Great Britain website... I will await your permission... Brigger

[Wrightturn]

Hey guys,

Didn`t think that model no. was on our side of the pond. Might be a good thing. I will try to find specs for a GB model. To set up a US spec fuel control for a GB model might require an extra step.

I have an AF meter that I can mount on my handelbars. I picked up a set of headers at a swap meet and welded a bung for an o2 sensor. I am learning to tune with it as an alternative to expensive dyno work. I tried it on my carb bike first and did learn something about decel pops. I put the stock needle and jets in for a starting point. Downshift and bang , meter reads 17:1 . Switched needles and reads 14.2:1 and no pop. Under load reads 13.4:1 and runs great. EPA will not be happy.
Sooner or later I will own an EFI bike. There will probably be a knob marked LEAN-RICH just like a small airplane. It has been done before.

[street bob]

I like the way you think..........

Too tech for me... leaves me in the 'dark zone'....!!!

Brigger

[milindh]

Originally Posted by Brigger

Wow that is quite some answer and a lot to digest...! Thanks very much, with your permission I will post this on the Evo Sportster forum on the Harley Davidson Club of Great Britain website... I will await your permission... Brigger

Hey Brigger

You can post this if you want. Just remember the jist of a lot of what I said was that I don't know what EFI mapping is coming from these manufacturers in their newer units. I believe there are actually some units being made in Canada, well beyond the reach of the long arm of the EPA. What's happening with these EFI modifier manufacturers is a mystery to those of us on the outside. Some may go belly up. Some might continue to sell "outlawed" units for "off road use only" while I'm sure others will try to toe the line set by the EPA.

The only way to find out what the story is with your Fuel Pak, a Vance and Hines product, is to call or email them. Even if they can only legally get you to the EPA mandated A/F ratio settings your bike should run pretty good anyway. Based on my own experience with the V&H tech support people I think they might very well provide you with all you need to get bike running even better than "pretty good". I'd call them rather than email them. You know, make it personal. Better results.

Good Luck

Originally Posted by Brigger

Hi,

A quick question, my HDRCGB, eEvo Sportster Forum are under the opinion that if you change the airfilter and pipes the engine will run lean damaging your engine and ultimately burning a hole on the piston(s).

I have tried the following routes:

K&N 1200C AIR FILTER VANCE AND HINES SLIP ON'S AND FUELPAK
RESULT ONE VERY SICK BIKE

K&N FILTER AND SLIP ONS
RESULT RAN OK BUT VERY LUMPY AND OVERRUN

SCREAMING EAGLE FILTER AND VANCE AND HINES SLIP ONS AND FUELPAK
EXRTEMELY SICK BIKE

SCREAMING EAGLE FILTER AND VANCE AND HINES SLIPS ONS
RESULT RUNS FINE...

I have run a diagnotstic check on each configuration and with the exception of the last set all have had problems.

My question is, is my set up ok or should I have the bike put on a DYNA... or as there are no fault messages, just get on and ride....??

Brigger

Change mode 1 to 5, mode 5 to 20, mode 6 to 18, and mode 23 to 21.
--

Derek Hewitt

Technical Support
Vance and Hines
13861 Rosecrans Ave.
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Vance & Hines: Performance Exhaust Systems



On 11/21/08 10:36 AM, "Kevin Brigginshaw" <kev@sportster.orangehome.co.uk> wrote:




HI DEREK.... QUITE BAFFLES



========================================
Message Received: Nov 21 2008, 04:20 PM
From: "Derek Hewitt"
To: "Kevin Brigginshaw"
Cc:
Subject: Re:

You are running the quiet baffles, or are the pipes just as they came in the box?


On 11/20/08 4:16 PM, "Kevin Brigginshaw" wrote:


Hi Derek any chance of a reply mate...Thanks Kev

hI Derek Running it as per FP680 and rolling back the throttle by hand...

Kev


Hi.... Got this reply from.... Vance anbd Hines..... What do you think... Kev

========================================
Message Received: Nov 18 2008, 10:27 PM
From: "Derek Hewitt"
To: "Kevin Brigginshaw"
Cc:
Subject: Re:




All Fuelpaks are the same and are made here in house in our factory. In mode 19 how are you calibrating your throttle? After you roll it open are you letting it shut by it self or are you rolling it back by hand? What FP number did you use to program your Fuelpak?