I have a few lubrication questions of long-time Evo owners. I am fairly new to the realm of Evo owners having been of the “see no Evo, hear no Evo, speak no Evo” mind set, but perspectives do change……;-). I think my perspective had more to do with the so called RUBs of the 1990s and the accompanying holier-than-thou attitudes many of them had and virtually all of them rode late-model Evos (not all had the attitude problem though and many became, or where from long before, real motorcycle people)………so the Evo-snob relationship was born………….. Now that most of this is history, I’ve become an Evo owner………1994 FLSTC….
With earlier model Harleys I mostly used AeroShell 100 aviation oil (50 weight) in the engine. The oil was specially crafted for air-cooled aircraft engines. Aircraft engines are subject to far greater stresses than we will ever place on a motorcycle engine and the oils used to lubricate them are equally so stressed, not to mention the extremely hostile environment aircraft engines operate in. When that wasn’t available I used Valvoline 50 wt. Racing Oil. Of course, I’d use Harley products if they could be had for a reasonable price, which wasn’t often (Actually, I preferred the AeroShell to everything else). In the transmission I’d use standard 80-90 wt. gearbox oil.
I do not have an owner’s manual for the FLSC, but I do have a Clymer manual and it specifies the 50 wt. and 60 wt. straight oils and 20-50 wt. for the multi-grade oils in the engine. I prefer using the multi-weight oils if I can. I also own a Moto Guzzi Bassa (Goose) that shares a lot of characteristics of the Harley (e.g., air-cooled, pushrod V-twin, separate engine and tranny, long-time production runs). I use 20-50 wt. oil in the Goose engine (SynTech full synthetic) and standard 80-90 wt. oil in the transmission and differential (it’s a shaft drive). I’d like to use the same engine oil and transmission oil in my 1994 FLSTC as well……....keeps things simpler………
The Clymer manual calls for the following:
Engine: 50 wt. and 60 wt. straight oil or 20-50 wt. multi-grade oil with an API rating of SE or SF. It doesn’t say SE or newer, rather it states the acceptable API ratings specifically. I understand the API rating system fairly well and both of these ratings are obsolete and have been for some time. The later of the ratings, SF, is for 1988 and older cars, which is before my 1994 was conceived, or produced anyway. Does anyone here know why Clymer specifies these particular oil grades—oil grades that aren’t very commonly found anymore? Besides official Harley products, what engine oil have all of you been using?
Transmission: Clymer specifies HD transmission or equivalent, but doesn’t specify what “equivalent” is. I suspect that it’s just standard 80-90 wt. gear oil, but I thought I’d ask since I’m here.
Primary: Here’s a difference between my Evo and earlier model Harleys, and my Goose for that matter. Both of the latter bikes have dry clutches, with the earlier Harleys’ primary chain being lubricated with a pressurized engine-oil mist. My Evo has a wet clutch and oil-filled primary. Clymer calls for HD lubricant or equivalent, but again doesn’t specify what that is. Again, besides the Harley products, what have you all been using?
Finally, late-model Harleys have specified the use of DOT 5 brake fluid (silicone based) for some time now. As simply a point of discussion, why DOT 5 versus DOT 3 or 4 (polyethylene glycol-base) like everyone else uses? That is, if the manufacturers of some of most (all?) the 150-200 mph sportbikes find the heat dissipation qualities of DOT 4 to satisfy the requirements, why does Harley specify DOT 5? In fact, there are some attributes that seem to weigh heavily against the selection of DOT 5, such as the tendency of water to accumulate and flow into the brakes and possibly cause brake failure under hard braking (DOT 5 does not absorb water and is lighter than water, so if water gets into the system, it will flow to the lowest point in the system with the resulting consequences), and also supposedly does absorb air, which could lead to mushy braking and brake fade. On the other hand from some simply on-line research I see that DOT 5 does not damage paint (could this be the reason?) and is allegedly preferred by the army (or maybe this is it?). Do you know of anyone else (motorcycle or other vehicle) that specifies DOT 5 as their recommended brake/hydraulic fluid? I also noted that there is a new DOT 5.1 standard that is also a polyethylene glycol-base fluid (A reversion back to the polyethylene glycol-base?). Hmmm…………
We use Spectro products at our shop. They have worked remarkably well for us for 15 years.
I recommend you use 20/50 in the engine.
Primary chaincase lube or any quality Dextron II ATF in your primary. (ATF does NOT mix with petroleum oil, a complete internal wash down and clutch friction disc replacement would be necessary)
85W140 in your transmission.
Dot 5 is good, after 2005 for dressers and 2006 for all other models H-D decided DOT4 is better, go figure.....
Why the change is beyond me.
If you want to change the type of brake fluid you are using, you must first replace every rubber component in your braking system. Is doing all that worth it to you?
I have heard (*warning -this is hearsay*) that DOT 5.1 is garbage. It is a functional failure.
dis8: I have been very satisfied with Dot 5 fluid: Factory installed in 85 Sporty and 02 Ultra, 73 Shovel converted over to Dot 5 when the master cylinders for front and rear were replaced with units specifying Dot 5 only.
I asked around at indy bike shops and found out that when the ABS braking systems were developed the Dot 5 foamed under operating conditions in that unit..hence the change. When dealing with those bikes just have to stick with the, "don't get it on the paint", operating procedure.
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I LIKE your idea on using automatic transmission fluid (ATF) in the primary I hadn't thought of that, but it makes perfect sense, or at least as perfect as can be expected. After all, there are more multi-plate clutches lubricated with ATF than any other lubricant I know of. Those are the clutches in automotive automatic transmissions. And many, many power-transfer roller chains are also lubricated by fluids such as ATF. In my farm tractor and other ag equipment I use hydraulic fluid (similar to ATF, but better for the application………less tendency to foam under high temperatures and agitation) that serves as hydraulic fluid and as lubricant for the transmission. The clutch in my Kubota is wet bathed as are the brakes (they are in the transmission!). ATF also helps keep things clean. In fact, for engines I am on the verge of rebuilding I run the engine at high idle for a while with ATF mixed in with the engine oil. I have done this for years without problems. ATF cleans most of the gunk out and makes for a much easier process of getting a clean engine to work with. Yea, I LIKE your idea a lot! I think this idea here is well worth changing the clutch plates over. I’ll use Dextron III since Dextron II isn’t readily available anymore. In any case, thanks for the idea!
Anyone else using ATF in their primary?
A lot of folks I have known or know use Golden Spectro motorcycle oil in their engines. Years ago I suspect the exorbitant prices charged by motorcycle dealerships for specialized motorcycle oil, along with what seeing most other folks were using, led me to begin using automotive oils in lieu of the specialized motorcycle oils. I, as previously noted, also used aircraft engine oil. Even the price for that was less than what the motorcycle dealers were charging (that was surprising given that everything associated with aircraft seems to be made of gold and is priced accordingly). While there is mostly likely some tweaking of the lubricants for the application (e.g., motorcycles versus cars) by most oil companies, I doubt that the difference is that great. I know that this debate—automotive oil versus motorcycle oil-- has been going on for as long as I’ve been around motorcycles. In all the years I’ve used automotive or aircraft oil in my bikes I’ve never had a problem or have the engines ever shown abnormal wear. In fact, a buddy of mine who owns, among other bikes, a Voyager XII had some valve-train problems that required the head to be removed. The bike had over 96,000 miles on it at the time. He had been running Mobil 1 15-50 wt. synthetic automotive oil in it since around 30,000 miles or so (he had been using Golden Spectro before that). One would think the cylinders would be well worn with that kind of mileage, but the hone marks were still visible and there was no ring ridge at the top of the cylinder! I have been using Castrol Syntech 20-50 wt. oil in my Goose and FLSTC. As a motorcycle shop owner I understand why you use specialized motorcycle oils—I would too if I owned a motorcycle shop…………customers want it that way. And if the price of Golden Spectro came back to earth in the motorcycle shops, I might switch.
Anyone else use automotive oils in their bike’s engine?
Concerning DOT 5, I was curious if anyone knows why Harley chose this standard for their brake fluid when most of the motorcycle and automotive community did and still uses either DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluids. Yes, DOT 3 and 4 fluids attack paint if they get on it and that would seem to me to be a possible reason, but I dunno……….. At this time I have no reason to want to change from the DOT 5 fluid to something else in my FLSTC. I just have to have three different brake fluids sitting on my shop shelve, DOT 3 for most of my cars and trucks, DOT 4 for my other bikes, and DOT 5 for the FLSTC. I do find it interesting that Harley has seemingly reverted to DOT 4 as you say……….?????............
Other than the fact that DOT 5.1 fluids are polyethylene glycol-base, I know nothing about them. I have no idea who uses them or in what. Anyone know anything about this?
The logic laid out above seems sound, but I have a question about the viscosity.
HD tells us we can use the same lube in engine, primay, and tranny if we go to Syn 3, a 20W-50.
Using Mobil 1 products as a guide (I have a tech manual on my desk and I am lazy)
20W-50 V-Twin oil has the following viscosities
130 cSt at 40C and 17.7 cSt at 100C
cSt is centiStokes, a measure of kinematic (flowing) viscosity.
Gear oils
Mobilube HD Plus
80W-90
139 cSt at 40C and 14.5 cSt at 100C ( a close match for 20W-50 motor oil)
85W-140
333 cSt at 40C and 25.4 at 100C A good bit heavier.
Now ATF
Lets use Mobil Multi-Vehicle ATF, covers pretty much everything except Type F
35 cSt at 40 C and 7.1 cSt at 100C A good bit thinner then 20W-50
So, use of 80W-90 gear oil is OK.
But we need to rationalize the ATF.
1- It is thinner than Syn 3. So what, billions of miles in cars means something! What is the viscosity of HD primary lube? I have no clue.
2- It is not "oil". Yes it is, just a different additive package. tailored for friction drive and chains. A good thing. Much better in my opinion than asking a motor oil to do the job.
3- Is there a 3?
I need to think about it, but I don't really see any show stoppers here.
Synthetic 20W-50 in the engine, we need it for the heat.
80W-90 gear lube in the tranny (or a tranny specific lube)
ATF in the primary, or a primary specific lube)
Been waiting for Bluesfan on this one. Thanks to Frisco I know own an IR thermometer and can see no reason not to use ATF. I used it years ago in Norton and Triumph primaries when I had clutch problems. The exception to this would be a Sportster that shares with the trans. ATF does not contain friction modifiers and that will benefit a wet clutch but not the best stuff for a trans. Spring adjustment in the old Triumph created clutch drag if not maintained. ATF helped.
I only know of one bike shop (aftermarket) that has Aeroshell. After the Donny Peterson article advising against using it in anything but airplanes they don`t sell much. I have the article in pdf if anyone would like a copy.
I use 15/50 Mobil 1 in my FLHP and Mobil 1 V Twin in my Dyna. I doubt there is any real difference but....
The only oil I have ever had problems with was foaming with Valvoline. I use a few drops of Castrol R on a hot pipe for aroma therapy. Brings back my memory.
I like your response! And yes, the conclusion you came to is that same as I did: 20-50 wt. in the engine, ATF in the primary, and 80-90 wt. (or similar) gear oil in the tranny. I thank dls8 for his ideas here.......
Concerning the use of automotive oils versus specialized motorcycle oils in motorcycle engines, I am reminded of a cartoon in an electronic engineering magazine several years ago. In the cartoon there was an engineer giving a visitor a tour of their manufacturing plant (I am relating this as best as I can from memory, which isn’t as good as it once was). They were looking at a moving production line of integrated circuits that, towrds the end of the process, split into two different lines for final specification marking. The visitor asked what the difference was between the two lines and the engineer stated that one line had the civilian specification marked on the IC and each of these was priced at 25 cents a piece, whereas the other line had Mil-Spec specifications printed and these were priced at $40 each. That isn’t all too far from the truth. Likewise, anything that is FAA certified costs several times more than exactly the same component that hasn’t been so certified. Another example is a horn relay I had to buy for a Kawasaki Voyager some years ago. At the Kawasaki dealer the relay cost over $100, where exactly the same component (same part number and manufacturer) at a local auto parts dealer cost less than $20. While I suspect that there are some slight differences between automotive oil and specialized motorcycle oil, I suspect the differences are relatively minimal (other than price) and would not come to bear under any application we’d see in street usage. Besides, even specialized motorcycle oil can’t be all that highly specialized due to the large array of differing motorcycle types and applications. On one hand, we have air-cooled engines (with their wider range of operating temperatures) and separate engine-and transmission assemblies (e.g., Harley, Moto Guzzi) and on the other the large number of liquid-cooled road bikes with integrated engine-transmission assemblies and wet clutches. The lubrication and oil-cooling requirements of these engines are markedly different. This has a lot to do with why I still use automotive oils in my motorcycles. Besides, in over four-decades of doing this I have never had a problem.
I do have a question concerning the use of synthetic gear oils though. I have had problems with synthetic gear oils, such as Mobil 1. Around six year ago I replaced the factory-filled mineral oil with Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil. It attacked the shaft seals and I ended up having to replace them. I now have Slick 50 gear oil in the Goose and it hasn’t caused any problems. I have heard that others have had seal problems like mine with synthetic gear oils in other applications as well, although I currently don’t remember what those applications were. How do the seals in the Evo-based bike transmissions hold up when using synthetic gear oil?
What is Syn 3 and is it any good?
Wrightturn, yes, if possible I’ like a copy of Donny Peterson’s article on the use of AeroShell. I used AeroShell 100 in bikes, airplanes, and airboats for years with no problems, but I can always learn something new…………. I still have nearly a case of it left……….
There are more than a few manual transmissions out there lubricated with ATF. The four-speed transmission in my old Citation was lubricated with ATF and my tractor uses specialized Ag hydraulic fluid to lubricate the gear box and ATF is an acceptable substitute for that fluid. My tractor’s transmission gets quite a work out too……………
If your seals leaked when you went to a syn oil I can think of 2 reasons.
Seal incompatibility and cleaning.
Older seals had problems with older synthetic oils. Those days are long gone.
Not knowing how long ago, I can't be much more specific than that.
Cleaning is, in my opinion, a more likely cause.
Synthetics have greatly improved solvency as compared to Group I fossil oils.
So you are riding along, seals are degrading, and the oil is helping to plug the fine leaks. All is well.
Then you put in a syn oil, and its solvency cleans up the stuff that was plugging the leaks. Crappy oil! No, it just revealed an existing issue.
Now, why oh why would you spend the the bucks for a synthetic gear oil? Syns are good for 2 things.
High heat (air cooled engine!!!) and extended drain interval.
It is really rather foolish to try to extend the HD recommended drain intervals by enough to justify the cost. And hi heat doesn't apply to the tranny.
As for Slick 50. None of those products will ever see my bikes.
It can be the best gear oil ever, the company is tainted by their teflon crud.
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