Starting problem 86 Heritage Harley Evo Discuss Starting problem 86 Heritage in the Motorcycles forums; Hi all, I have a 86 Heritage which is stock except for S&S E carb & Adjustable pushrods, Headquarters cam and single fire ignition, Jims lifters and blocks. This bike ...

[billski]

Hi all, I have a 86 Heritage which is stock except for S&S E carb & Adjustable pushrods, Headquarters cam and single fire ignition, Jims lifters and blocks. This bike does not want to turn over first thing in the morning. I have installed a new solenoid, new battery and replaced the brushes in the starter motor and cleaned up all electrical connections. Fortunately I live at the top of a hill so I can bump start it to go on a ride. Once the bike is warmed up it usually starts easily and the motor turns easily. Occaisionally it will not turn over properly and will not start however.I had an auto electrician have a quick look and he said the problem was not electrical plus I had him load test the battery which showed it was pushing over 200 amps. He suggested I check for hydraulic lock in the cylinders by running the carb out of gas and then trying the bike in the morning. I did that yesterday and this morning it started ok. I then took the carb off switched on the petcock but couldn't see any gas leaking then removed the bowl to see if I could see anything such as debri or anything sticking to cause gas to leak into the cylinders but I couldn't find anything wrong so flushed it out with carb cleaner and refitted the carb. The only fault I could find was one of the bolts on the inlet manifold was slightly loose which I tightened. I went for a twenty mile ride and the bike wouldn't start after parking up for a couple of hours. I always hook up a battery tender overnight but I had to get a boost from a car to start it. This has been going on for a while and it is starting to drive me crazy.
Any ideas gratefully accepted. Billski

[aceharleywrench]

Try running a heavy jumper wire directly from the positive battery post to the small terminal on your starter solenoid.If this eliminates your problem the wiring to or from the start button (or the button itself) is the problem.

[tommyglide]

Starter relay perhaps? Just replaced mine on the 85.

[billski]

I will try jumping the solenoid and replacing the relay. Both good ideas thank you. The wiring is 5 years new as I rewired the whole bike then except for the heavy guage stuff to the starter and solenoid. I will report back. Thanks Billski

[frisco-rigid]

Hey Bill

After reading about and posting in your Ign. thread, I have a couple questions about this Diff start prob..

What exactly does it do..??

Does it seem to WANT to spin but acts like it just cannot turn the motor over or perhaps kinda bump up to a certain point then kinda kick back.??
Does it just click or just absolutely Nothing happens when you push the button.???

This is my Wild guess---
If your ign which is for Hi-Cmp motors and only retards 25*, is set at the old normal 35* Full Advance it then has a 10* BTDC start-up timing..
Now,, it's just barely poss that your motor, when cold, is simply too diff for the starter to turn-over with that start-up timing..
That's why I ask about it Wanting to spin and maybe even kicking back a wee bit..
As I said in your Ign thread, I believe that ign is in-correct for your motor..

Another thing to try is to always dis-engage the clutch when starting even in neutral..
There is no reason what-so-ever to force the starter to spin the Clutch hub/pack and related Main-shaft gears in the tranny when all it needs to do is spin the clutch shell pulley and motor..
Make it a wee easier on the starter that way..

[billski]

frisco-rigid,
Thanks for following my multiple threads and sorry about the length of this post.
I will try to describe the problem in more than one way to see if we can get over the problem of diagnosis from across the pacific. Plus I might describe it in a different way to you. First regarding this being the wrong ignition I have now found the headquarters web site and you are correct about it being wrong for my motor. I was sold it in person by Doug at Headquarters in London Ont and did tell him how stock my motor was. The reason I bought it was that I had to clean the plugs monthly as they continually oiled up with the stock ignition and that at least was cured. However I see my problem as not cranking over rather than not firing at the right time. I am not aware of the engine kicking back when trying to start. I did get several years or so of normal starting with this setup until about 4 years ago. Since then I have replaced the battery twice, solenoid twice, and two new sets of brushes in the starter. The second of each the past three months. I am going to use your method of timing on my next day off (thursday) as my current timing is a guess from when I changed the nosecone and I used a picture of the old setting as a reference. Starting when cold is very different than when bike is warm. When warm often I just press the starter, engine spins quickly and fires right away, sometimes I need a couple of twists on the throttle before it will start to prime it. When stone cold (when left overnight) until recently it would start sometimes if I was lucky but occaisionally I would need to bump start it and luckily I live at the top of a big hill. The past three months I always have to bump it in the morning. When cold it seems like it only has enough power to turn it over one or two revolutions before it cannot turn it over any more. No clicks or anything just no grunt to do the job. It will turn over once or twice then whine to a stop. If I wait a minute and try again it might do the same again or a bit better but still not quick enough to start. When I bump it I have to stand up and bounce on the seat when I let the clutch out as the back wheel just slides if I dont. Last week it wouldn't start when warm or with bump starting so we had to jump start it off a car. The motor spun quickly and started with jumping it. Now I just remembered what you said about pulling the clutch when starting so I have just tried that and it started on the third attempt. From Cold! That is progess thank you! It was still turning over slower than when warm and it was only just quick enough to start but it did start. This has made me think of something else that might be related. I think my clutch is slightly out of adjustment as I can feel it grab slightly when I am reversing into a parking space when in gear with the clutch pulled out. Also sometimes when turning over it will spit gas out of the carb and I always see a smoke like mist when it does start. Having just re-read this before I post it I realise that I have several possibly overlapping issues that I need to address. ie wrong ignition, clutch adjustment, timing, weak starter? and check ignition switch and handlebar wiring. Thanks again for your interest. Bill

[frisco-rigid]

Hi Bill

I wish everyone would include ALL the info they could think of,, good man..

Interesting that it worked fine in it's present form for several years.. Hmmm..
That's weird..
You've been fighting this for 4 years huh..

Please also try what Ace & Tommy sugg'd too..

Is the charging system working properly.? Have you read the battery charge in the morning before attempting the first start.?
I realize you said you connect a Batt Tender overnight but I gotta address the Obvious..
Have you read the charging Voltage to the Batt at idle.?
If low for either you might consider checking the Stator out-put..
You DO have a Volt/Ohm/Amp meter don't you.????
Have you ever used a 2nd Batt (jumped in) in the morning when stone cold.?

And you have Double-checked all the switch connections, batt connects, etc etc etc..

Before this began did you make any other changes/mods like push-rod
adjustment etc etc..?

You won't have to worry about a liquid fuel Hydralic lock if you always Turn-Off the Petcock upon shut-down..
However it normally just leaks past the rings anyway..

I eagerly await all your test results..

[billski]

frisco-rigid,
A new 32A compufire charging was installed about 4 years ago when I rewired the entire bike except for the heavy guage stuff to the battery, solenoid and starter including all new switches, relays and a badlands turn signal equaliser thingy. Last week I had a auto electrician have a look at the bike. He checked the voltage with all switched off, and when starting as well as volts at the starter. I also had him do a load test on the new battery I put in last month which is putting out 200+ amps. I have cleaned all connections from battery to solenoid to starter and put a little dielectric grease on them as well. I have not tried jumping direct from battery to solenoid or changing the starter relay yet. I also replaced the rectifier last year and the shop told me that jumping the bike from a car was dangerous to the rectifier is that true? Since then I only jump it from a car if stranded somewhere. I am planning to work on the bike thursday and will report all findings to all threads then. thanks Bill

[billski]

I jump started the bike from my car yesterday and it started immediately. I just found out that the battery I put in last month is a "Deka that supposedly cranks out 275 amps." I had an auto electrician do a quick load test on it last week and it was putting out 200 amps approx. The supplier has asked that I take it back to the auto electrician to be deep cycle charged and tested again which I did yesterday. I'll find out on monday if it really is 75 amps short of what it should be. This battery might just be strong enough to start the bike when it is warm but not from cold.

[Bigincher]

Hello billski,

I've been following this thread, and .... did I just read that your ignition timing is set "on a guess"...... based on a "photograph from before you changed ignition systems"....??

I'm no genious, but I DO know that timing should never be set "on a guess", and it's really so simple to static time your motor, anyway. It's one of the very basic primary things a person should learn, if he's going to work on his own bike.

If the timing is mistakenly set too far advanced, it will cause the symptoms you describe. Imagine the spark plug firing too soon before the piston reaches TDC, and the starter then trying to overcome that premature ignition/explosion of fuel in the combustion chamber.

Not to throw another bone in the soup here, but a defective VOES will cause the exact same symptoms, if you are using one. The VOES will hold the overall iginition timing in Retard until vacuum from the intake tract closes the switch and tells the ignition module to advance itself.

Good luck. If it was my bike, I would check the static timing first. First things first, simple things first.