TC vs EVO oil filters
Harley Oil & LubricationDiscuss TC vs EVO oil filters in the Harley Tech & Harley How-to forums; That doesn't work for me. I have tore things apart and played with the components just to figure out and/or see how it really works....
Naw, it's could be that they just don't care & figure we'll all just have to be satisfied with whatever they have for us And/Or maybe, as you sugg'd, they have sacrificed something..
When I get a wild hair I look into these things to see if I should stay with what I'm using or not..
Napa's filters are Wix and I was already looking into maybe switching over..
But I don't fret it tooo much cuz No filter is Giant leaps & bounds over any other filter & they all do at least a decent job..
__________________ "Fill your hands you son of a bitch"
Rooster Cogburn
Hello,
I am a many time repeat customer. I have purchase 3 or 4 of your filters for my many bikes in the past years, all being for EVOs and Sporty EVOs. Recently I purchased another S4 for my 2009 Ultra Classic with the 96CI twin cam. Now I have a gentleman on a HD forum saying that your filter doesn't filter enough for the motors misters. That the TC needs a 5 micron filtering. Anything higher will clog the misters and lead to motor problems.
I know that the EVOs at idle don't have a enough oil psi to push thru 5 micron rating filter media. So on a paper filter does the filter go into bypass? On the K&P for an evo, if it has TC filtering, how does it work with the low psi evo? Or does the S4 not filter down to 5 micron and therefor not nessicarly qualify for the twin cam micron requirement?
Can you please provide me with more information on this technical question. Something I can use to support your great product and settle my worries about filtration on my new motor.
I noticed that HD put out a TC/EVO filter called their Super Prem Filter. I'm not sure how they were able to do so. What did they sacrifice to achieve a filter that works on both applications? Is that sacrifice similar or the same for the K&P?
Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter, as a loyal customer.
Good day,
-Chris
The response from K&P
Quote:
Hi Chris,
Micron rating discussions are often bantered about like fish stories. There
can be a lot of different versions presented of what is really happening.
We prefer the ASTM tests when measuring the particle size a particular
filter media will pass. ASTM testing eliminates the majority of the user
defined parameters (variables) for what we consider to be more accurate
results. The Harley filter that is advertised as 10 microns using SAE tests
actually passed 48 micron particles when run through the ASTM test. The 5
micron filter passed up to 39 microns. At 35 microns we meet or exceed the
filtration performance of the factory filters. An interesting thing to note
is that out of all the paper filters we have tested, the factory Harley
filter has performed better than most paper filters for particulate size.
The flow rate is where our filter really excels. We flow approximately 5
times more than the EVO filter, resulting in faster oil pressure at startup,
less chance of bypass operation, less back pressure against the oil pump
(potential HP gains) and better oil cooling. The reason we can get more
flow with the same filtration is due to the filter media. Cellulose or
other particles glued or pressed together don't have nearly the flow of very
small stainless steel wires woven into a filter cloth. This woven cloth
also produces more consistent filtration across the entire media, as well as
from filter to filter.
It's good you are thinking about the bypass operation in the overall
equation. After all, it doesn't matter how good the filter media is if it
doesn't flow enough to prevent the bypass from opening. Bypass operation is
a direct result of differential pressure (the difference in pressure between
the outside and inside of the filter element). We installed a gage on each
side of the filter on a pro stock motorcycle. During a pass down the track
we measured 20 lbs of differential pressure with a stock paper filter. We
measured less than 1 lb with our filter. That means a filter with a bypass
spring pressure of 15 lbs will have the bypass open. Ours, with a starting
spring pressure of 3.5 lbs, still has a 300 percent margin before the bypass
opens.
One additional thought. I have heard that the Harley engineers have been
researching the mister problem and are eyeing the paper particles that are
released from the paper filter media as a potential problem area. Cut apart
a new paper filter and rub the media surface and you'll see why they might
suspect something.
The Super Premium filter that I am aware of is the 5 micron filter and
should not be run on the Evo. It doesn't flow enough and will cause
problems with the back pressure it develops in the oiling system.
We have thousands of filters out there on Twin Cams and haven't had a
problem.
Hope all of this helps. Thanks for being a customer and for taking an
interest in oil filtration. There is a lot more to it than most people
realize.
Dave,
I truely appreciate your time in answering this one guy's questioning. I opened this to discussion and composed quite the post in American Irons HD Forum. TC vs EVO oil filters
Being part of the petro industry I'm well aware of the ASTM ratings on many things in my field, just not your particular spec. I tried to look it up but was having some difficulty finding a simple break down and how it relates to an oil filter.
I'm well aware of the paper filters breaking down and releasing the very paper filter into the motor that is suppose to be protecting the motor. One of the riders that spoke praise of the K&P filter years ago, said that after 30k on his evo when he switched to the K&P and was finding paper media in his K&P for about 3 oil changes. I may have to do this on the next paper filter oil change I do on a buds bike just to show them and get some pictures for more proof.
So out of all the other paper media filters the HD filters work the best but still lack seriously in their filtering. So the newest HD super prem filter being their best 5 micron filter is the one you are saying only filters to 39 microns?
I'm with ya on not running a TC filter on a EVO and wonder why HD would recommend it. I see a great deal of filter bypassing happening with that type of application.
I appreciate the insight on the bypassing function. I knew it was something of that sort.
At the end of the day the K&P filters 35 microns and that is a constant filtration that isn't restricted by the downfalls of the paper media. The reason why the K&P can work on both a TC and EVO is because of its superior flow rates, correct?
Can you answer my final few questions above. Does it sound like I have my head on straight with this? If you want, register and post on the link I put above. I will copy/paste your response but it may be better to come straight from the source.
Good Day & Thanks Again!
-Chris
Well there it is... As I said, I know many who have seen the paper media pieces in their K&P mesh at the time of oil changes. It does make me feel a bit better after some doubt was casted around these parts.
If you do take pictures of the paper debris being filtered out please send
me a copy and I will add it to our web site as independent testing. We can
test all day long, but it is still testing we are sponsoring and as such
should be viewed with the same scrutiny as other manufacturers data.
I wouldn't say the HD filters are lacking on the filtration. Most paper oil
filters return results in the 50-90 micron range. This is inclusive of
automotive filters. Remember, 50 microns is pretty small stuff. A white
blood cell is around 25 microns, cigarette smoke is 10 microns.... If
these weren't sufficient filtration levels there would be a lot of internal
combustion engine failures.
The reason our filter can be used on both the EVO and Twin Cam applications
is they meet or exceed the filtration of the Twin Cam (which has very
restricted flow) and flow many times more than the EVO (which doesn't filter
as fine as the Twin Cam but flows more). We provide the best of both
worlds.
One final note: After a very long process of testing, quality assurance and
process validation our filters have been awarded FAA certification. You are
running the same filters that have passed this certification.
hello,
I have been doing some research on the proper oil filter for the proper motor. With a garage that has both EVO and Twin Cam motors in it. I see that both K&N and HD offer oil filters that are listed to serve both motors. This is troubling...
The EVO motor is a low pressure, high volume oiling system. The oil filter for this motor needs to be capable of high flow and be able to flow at low pressures. It should not have the anti-drain back.
The TC motor is a high pressure, low volume oiling system. This oil filter needs more filtering due to the 5 micron passages on the misters. This should have the anti-drain back.
That being said. I see and have always used the 170 oil filter on the evo motors. I have always believed that the 171 is the filter for the Twin Cam motors. I know this works. However both K&N (171) and HD (63731-99A
)have offer these filters that when cross referenced they can link back to the EVO oil filter part numbers.
The way I believe it would happen if you ran a TC oil filter on a EVO motor, that at idle the evo won't put out enough pressure to push thru the 5 micron rated paper media, therefor the pressure would increase enough to go thru the bypass valve. Not good.
So if you still approve the 171 for the EVO motor, does the 171 not carry a 5 micron rating? That would mean its not approved for TC motors. How can the 171 fit both motors?
Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter, as a loyal customer.
Good day,
-Chris
Response:
Quote:
Dear K&N Valued Customer,
Thanks for your interest in our products, The EVO engines use a reverse flow oil system. which means that the oil flows through the oil filter backwards thus not allowing us to use and anti drain back valve. That is why the kn-170 filter is used. If you used a kn-171 filter in that situation the oil would not be able to flow past the drain back valve causing an oiling problem. The Twin cam uses a conventional oil flow system which allows us to utilize the anti drain back feature. Our oil filters are capable of handling the high pressure high volume oil flows that performance oil pumps can put out. Our Uniform pleated synthetic base media has a less of a pressure drop across the media without sacrificing filtration. This means your engine is going to get all the oil it was intended to get from the oil pump. When you are dealing with EVO engines it is best to go on our website and look up the specific bike when applicable to see what filter we recommend. My understanding is not all EVO engines are reverse oil flow. If I can be of further assistance feel free to call or email.
Ryan Pelkey
Technical & Customer Support Representative
K&N Engineering Ryanp@knfilters.com
Phone: (800) 858-3333
*When replying please include this entire e-mail*
Sure sounds like this guy is copy/paste some sales pitch... so I rebute
Quote:
Ryan,
Please give more info on the micron rating for the K&N filters for both motors.
Also, how is it that when the cross reference numbers are looked up for your 171 that it can be cross referenced to an HD filter for an EVO.
Can you provide some information on the K&N filter that makes it superior to other paper media filters such as a HD unit.
Further, I will share this info with my biker buds to help promote the use of the K&N filters.
Thanks again,
-Chris
Again a response out of a sales manual
Quote:
Dear K&N Customer,
Thank you again for your interest in K&N products. I do realize that in some cases the 171 Filter is listed for an EVO engine. We recommend that you look up the oil filters for EVO engines by year make and model of the bike instead of cross referencing the filter number. We have listed the filters for each bike application by the OEM filter number to ensure the right filter is being used because using the wrong filter could result in engine damage. The K&N Performance Gold Oil Filter has been constructed from the ground up to satisfy the high performance needs of Powersports racers, as well as the average bike owner who wants the very best oil filter available. Our synthetic-cellulose blend filter media stops particles as small as 10-20 microns at 90 Percent efficiency while still allowing high flow rates (between 12-16 gallons per minute, depending on filter size). This does not mean the filter does not filter out smaller particles. I do not have any data on the filters efficiency below 10-20 micron. Keep in mind the 5 micron filter is a recommended premium filter Not a Required filter. In applications where a steel-canister type filter is used, we use a heavy-duty steel casing, double-rolled seams to prevent leaks, internally lubricated o-rings to maintain a good seal (even after repeated removal/installation), and attach a 17mm nut for quick and easy removal. An attractive black or chrome finish is available on most canister style filters. Vehicles which use a cartridge-type filter (no metal canister around the element) also benefit from K&N's oil filter technology. The same features of a canister-type filter element have been incorporated into a cartridge-style filter. All K&N Performance Gold Oil Filters are manufactured to meet and exceed the requirements of automotive manufacturers, contain anti-drain back and pressure relief valves when required in OE applications, and are covered by a K&N limited warranty to be free from defects in materials and workmanship when installed and replaced using the engine and equipment manufacturers recommended service intervals.
If you have any further questions please call our Customer Support team at 1(800)858-3333 and a representative will be happy to assist you. Thank you for writing and have a great day.
Ryan Pelkey
Technical & Customer Support Representative
K&N Engineering Ryanp@knfilters.com
Phone: (800) 858-3333
*When replying please include this entire e-mail*
I'm not impressed with K&N and their response. This guy seems to not have any techincal background or insight.
Yeah you noticed that one did ya... I was wondering who would... WOW!!!
I just re-read all of the K&N stuff to the wife... I'm really disappointed with K&N. He didn't directly answer most of my questions. Further, as he was copy/pasting most of his replies he started to tell me about the filter canisters which I NEVER asked about. he also never offered me to email him back on his second reply. Either K&N doesn't want to put any numbers in writting or he simply lacks enough knowledge to have constructive input. This may be the nail in the coffin for K&N and me. There are plenty of other manufactures making even air filters that meet or exceed K&N.
Our synthetic-cellulose blend filter media stops particles as small as 10-20 microns at 90 Percent efficiency while still allowing high flow rates (between 12-16 gallons per minute, depending on filter size).
So wouldn't that mean that their best filter can pass things as large as 22 microns.
Further I don't believe thier GPM. That is going to be the best filter size which will be MANY MANY times bigger than our little filters and at what PSI input from the oil pump... 40psi?
I thought I read that the K&P filter has absolute (100%) efficiency at 35 microns. NOTHING gets past it bigger than 35 microns.
Re: TC vs EVO oil filters 
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