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  #1  
Old 06-11-2009, 10:47 PM
unfknblvbl's Avatar
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Default Thinking about springing the train...

So I've got this major itch to do some work to the scoot. As most I don't want my bike to be "just" another Night Train out there. With that the wheels have been turning. I have always dug the Springer Softail and got to thinkin' about it, hhhmmm my NT is basically a "dark" version of the Softail Custom obviously with some aesthetic differences. Then that turned to, "well before they discontinued the Springer Softail it was basically a Softail Custom with a springer front end." See where I'm going with this?

So I'm thinking about putting a black (matte black) and chrome springer on the front end of my bike. With that I'd like to a few more degrees of rake, no more than say 3*. I like the stance of the bike now, but I think if it had just a couple more degrees of rake I'd like it that much more. Sometimes I look at the bike and think it looks like it's almost been "smooshed" a bit.

Here's where the question lies (not being a very savvy wrench turner on bikes yet), would I need to buy a set of triple trees with the rake built in or would I be able to get a springer with everything built in? If I had to buy a set of triple trees with the rake built in would I then need to buy a longer than stock front end? With that and if I added those 3* degrees would I kill the handling of the bike as it is now? I'll stay with my 200 rear, it's big enough for me.
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2009, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

Hi Un

I for one would Not advise getting any front-end----springer or not----with rake built into it..

If you want a "rake' you should do it correctly which is a real pain on an already built sickle..
You would have to take it to a real Pro frame man and get the neck cut, re-raked to your desire and re-welded.. Welded poorly you could die..

I told here once about the 3* raked front-end I put on a stock shovel 30* frame neck one day (and I mean One day) about 30 years ago..
I felt lucky just to ride it back to the shop to take it off..

That's my experience And I could repeat the "rake & trail" info and Spec's all day long but it's much better for you to Google --Rake and Trail-- and read the real skinny from a kinda scientific view-point..
One of the things you'll read is that the already "raked" triple trees (front-end) are to be used on very extreme raked NECKs to decrease trail a wee bit for handling with those crappy set-ups..
Another reason I don't want you to do it is I want you to be around long enough to raise a glass and enjoy a 40 ring size with us all one day..
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  #3  
Old 06-12-2009, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

IMHO and in my experience, there's just way too much engineering and physics involved to haphazardly change the rake and/or tube lengths, ect. with an aftermarket throw-on kit or whatever. Especially at high speeds.
To each their own and I suppose it's all about your style of riding but you'll limit the handling and lean angle. Spend your money elsewhere if you want to make it different.
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  #4  
Old 06-12-2009, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

Un, the Springer has the triple trees built into it, I don’t think they even call them triple trees on them.
So you would buy a Springer front end with the rake and length that you wanted.
Also you need to consider the length of the front rockers, all this changes the trail.
The rakes triple trees are to correct the trail of bikes with extreme raked steering heads and extended front ends.
This is too much money to be spending and not get it right. Like Frisco said, do your homework, there are a ton of sites about rake trail, there are sites that have a calculator to figure trail.
Then start calling guys that specialize making front ends and ask what they say.
It’s not a bad idea to get a piece of paper and draw the planed changes out and check the trail on the drawing.
Then look up your trail on the HD site, and try to keep it pretty close.
You are probably about three and a half.
Changing it just an inch will make it handle different.
Anything less than two inches or over six will not be fun.
You might be able to extend the front end a couple of inches, rake it one degree, or so and get the look that you want, still keep a decent trail.
Extending the front end raises the front end and tilts (or rakes) the steering head, this also decrees the trail.
Adding the raked head will compensate for this. (or is it the other way around)
But please talk to an expert.
Keep us informed let us know what you learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfknblvbl View Post
So I've got this major itch to do some work to the scoot. As most I don't want my bike to be "just" another Night Train out there. With that the wheels have been turning. I have always dug the Springer Softail and got to thinkin' about it, hhhmmm my NT is basically a "dark" version of the Softail Custom obviously with some aesthetic differences. Then that turned to, "well before they discontinued the Springer Softail it was basically a Softail Custom with a springer front end." See where I'm going with this?

So I'm thinking about putting a black (matte black) and chrome springer on the front end of my bike. With that I'd like to a few more degrees of rake, no more than say 3*. I like the stance of the bike now, but I think if it had just a couple more degrees of rake I'd like it that much more. Sometimes I look at the bike and think it looks like it's almost been "smooshed" a bit.

Here's where the question lies (not being a very savvy wrench turner on bikes yet), would I need to buy a set of triple trees with the rake built in or would I be able to get a springer with everything built in? If I had to buy a set of triple trees with the rake built in would I then need to buy a longer than stock front end? With that and if I added those 3* degrees would I kill the handling of the bike as it is now? I'll stay with my 200 rear, it's big enough for me.
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Last edited by HarleyCruiser; 06-12-2009 at 10:01 AM.
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  #5  
Old 06-14-2009, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

Which ever you decide... you will need to look into a rake & trail calc
Goldammer Cycle Works

Get your trail out too far and the bike will be horrible to ride.

With springers, there is allot that goes into installing one correctly when cutting the legs. Lots of math and geometry. A bud of mine put one on and he tried to explain it to me but lost me... damn machinist guys!

What type of springer you looking at?
I know that you really want one with bearings at the pivits and a shock in it.
I can share a horror story about a american suspension dragon springer...
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  #6  
Old 06-14-2009, 09:30 PM
unfknblvbl's Avatar
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

Thanks for the input guys....I've read about rake and trail a good handful of times trying to understand it and I've messed around with the calculators, but nothing serious. The rake would be a nice to have, but I'm not looking to spend a fortune on frame cutting etc, I'll save that for when the day comes to build a nice little rigid to beat on. With that said (and the research stage isn't over) I'll continue to decide where I really want to take, but I understand what you are saying about the handling.

Gasman- I haven't really decided on a brand of springer yet. I've looked at few like Paughco, Redneck Engineering and a couple of others.

Right now this is all a pipe dream....gotta get through buying a house first.
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"A wise man's heart directs him towards the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him towards the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2


It's better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees!

'08 Night Train
V&H Big Shots Staggered
SE Stage I A/C
V&H Fuelpak
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2009, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

Yeah I understand the pipe dreams... keep on dreaming... trust me if you ever do finish a bike... it kinda sucks. I did that with my last chop. Did everything I wanted to do to it... then you sit there and think.... "now what..."

Here's the american suspensions dragon springer on a buds 04 BDM chop. It is by far the sickest springer I have ever seen. However, he used their "new and improved" brake stay. A nice CNC piece without the heims. COMPLETE JUNK!! The brass bushings gave way, the brake caliper went spinning around the rotor, smacked the back of the legs and locked up the front wheel, and snapped the front brake line... all at 75mph. At abt 40mph the front end started jumping so bad that he ended up dumping the bike.




The dreaded brake caliper stay bracket I was talking about
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2009, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about springing the train...

The tops


After that he went with a mean street avalon setup... which is a knock off from the golddammer

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