Xr1200 front brakes failure by lock-up - Harley Forum

cabinetmartel · #1 05-21-2009, 04:14 PM

XR1200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURE BY LOCK-UP

Hi Everybody:

On Sep. 2008, in LAKE GARDA, ITALY, I have been wounded in an accident as a consequence of a brand new XR1200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURE.

The accident has happened :
- at the end of a 20 minute HOG/HD DEMO-RIDE on a moderatly twisty road,
- in town with plenty of potential witnesses walking, riding or driving around,
- between 2 round-abouts,
- on a perfect road,
- while riding straight ahead,
- at a slow speed, and
- upon a very slight front braking that has locked the front wheel and let the front wheel locked even after the accident.

The police report and the witness statement are at your disposal.

Please note that , although I have joined the HOG/HD DEMO-RIDE team over the cell phone right after the accident, I have seen for the 1st time a member of the HOG/HD DEMO-RIDE on the spot more than 1 hour later when I was about to make for the Italian hospital in an ambulance.

Now I am listing the suspects that I am thinking about:

1. Defective front wheel bearings

2. Defective hydraulic release valve in the front brake master cylinder

3. Defective front brake discs

4. Defective front brake calipers - advertised as new and made by NISSIN JAPAN for HD with cast BAR & SHIELD logos - because of:
4.a. insufficient retractation of calipers pistons in their bores upon pressure release and/or
4.b. insufficient side-play between calipers pistons & bores when brakes are hot.

My favorite suspect would be suspect 4.b.. However, I am not an engineer but first of all a victim and his US lawyer awaiting an answer from HD USA re :
- the XR1200 front brakes failure and
- the insults that I have received later from one member of the HOG/HD DEMO-RIDE team when I was coming back from the Italian hospital.

Please note that I have talked in ITALY with the HOG EUROPE manager and the HOG FRANCE manager at the same time. The HOG EUROPE manager has ordered the HOG FRANCE director as follows: "NOT A WORD ON THIS!" and has promised an answer from HD with a 8 or 10 day delay....

For the less, these behaviors do not match HD's code of business conducts with its 5 overarching values to TELL THE TRUTH, BE FAIR, KEEP YOUR PROMISES, RESPECT THE INDIVIDUAL & ENCOURAGE INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY!

Please feel free to comment.

Ride safe!

Pierre MARTEL
29 BOULEVARD KENNEDY
F-06800 CAGNES-SUR-MER
FRANCE
TEL: +33 4 92 02 14 27
FAX: +33 4 92 02 73 76
cabinetmartel@aol.com

PS: Re HD defective motorbikes, I recommend the AIM thread on "Leaking CVO 110' "

milindh · #2 05-21-2009, 05:30 PM

Ok, I'll throw this in here. I had a similar experience on my '91 T-Bird a few months back.

I was having a problem with too much throw on the brake pedal and consequently not enough stopping power. New rotors, new pads, new rear shoes, new master cylinder, and good bleed job. After all this the pedal went down not far from the floor. Not good.

What could the problem be?....H-m-m-m. Must be the power assist. It was the only thing left (or so I thought). So after a check for vacuum leaks (none) I checked the length of the power assist diaphram to master cylinder shaft. Sure enough (?) it was too short by about 1/4". So I adjusted it to the middle of the called out length specs. I hurriedly put it all back together and jumped in the Bird to run off to the union hall to make roll call. It seemed OK. Good pedal height. Maybe slight dragging but hardly noticeable. About half way to my destination, doing about 55 mph, the front brakes started smelling "brakey" (not good!) and within a few hundred feet the front brakes locked up. Had to get towed back home.

What happened was, in my rush to get this adjustment done, I had improperly measured the length of the little rod thang and it had been too long, beyond specs by 3/16". Just enough to put drag on the rotors which heated up the rotors so much that they expanded to the point that the pads had no free play and...lock-o! I adjusted the shaft back to middle range of its specs and I was back to normal but still not great. In the end the problem was a frozen rear brake shoe adjuster that kept that wheel from adjusting up to where is should be. Used up a lot of pedal travel to get the job done.

How this relates to Pierre's experience is this:

My problem was related to the front caliper pistons not returning to where they were supposed to. The internal valving on calipers is set up for the pistons to return to their proper space every time. In my case my bad setting of the power assist rod prevented that and heat from friction built up to the point that the whole system locked up.

In the case of the XR1200 brakes I think there could be a problem with either the caliper piston return valves or maybe just bad quality control. Whatever the case, if the pistons don't withdraw to their proper place, you'll get the heat up/lock up thang happening just like on my T-Bird.

Hammerhead Pat · #3 05-21-2009, 05:31 PM

This "allegedly" happened almost nine months ago. Why are you posting now and what are you trying to accomplish on this forum? The bike in question has been available in the US for 4 or 5 months now and I haven't heard of any failures. And when you say "low speed", exactly what speed were you going?

milindh · #4 05-21-2009, 05:44 PM

By the way, Pierre, you should be able to retire comfortably on this one. Kinda seemed like you were putting your case before this jury here on the forum. I'm not completely sure why you put things the way you did. Sounded a bit like lawyer-ese to me, setting the stage for a court battle.

Your motives- kinda hard to tell. Might be good. Might be greed. Of course, HD's lip zipping is more lawyer moves too.

aceharleywrench · #5 05-21-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead Pat

This "allegedly" happened almost nine months ago. Why are you posting now and what are you trying to accomplish on this forum? The bike in question has been available in the US for 4 or 5 months now and I haven't heard of any failures. And when you say "low speed", exactly what speed were you going?

Don't bother,Hammerhead,I've been trying to get this guy to answer these questions since he started posting.All he does is skirt the issues & cry that "everybody's attacking him"

cabinetmartel · #6 05-22-2009, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milindh

Ok, I'll throw this in here. I had a similar experience on my '91 T-Bird a few months back.

I was having a problem with too much throw on the brake pedal and consequently not enough stopping power. New rotors, new pads, new rear shoes, new master cylinder, and good bleed job. After all this the pedal went down not far from the floor. Not good.

What could the problem be?....H-m-m-m. Must be the power assist. It was the only thing left (or so I thought). So after a check for vacuum leaks (none) I checked the length of the power assist diaphram to master cylinder shaft. Sure enough (?) it was too short by about 1/4". So I adjusted it to the middle of the called out length specs. I hurriedly put it all back together and jumped in the Bird to run off to the union hall to make roll call. It seemed OK. Good pedal height. Maybe slight dragging but hardly noticeable. About half way to my destination, doing about 55 mph, the front brakes started smelling "brakey" (not good!) and within a few hundred feet the front brakes locked up. Had to get towed back home.

What happened was, in my rush to get this adjustment done, I had improperly measured the length of the little rod thang and it had been too long, beyond specs by 3/16". Just enough to put drag on the rotors which heated up the rotors so much that they expanded to the point that the pads had no free play and...lock-o! I adjusted the shaft back to middle range of its specs and I was back to normal but still not great. In the end the problem was a frozen rear brake shoe adjuster that kept that wheel from adjusting up to where is should be. Used up a lot of pedal travel to get the job done.

How this relates to Pierre's experience is this:

My problem was related to the front caliper pistons not returning to where they were supposed to. The internal valving on calipers is set up for the pistons to return to their proper space every time. In my case my bad setting of the power assist rod prevented that and heat from friction built up to the point that the whole system locked up.

In the case of the XR1200 brakes I think there could be a problem with either the caliper piston return valves or maybe just bad quality control. Whatever the case, if the pistons don't withdraw to their proper place, you'll get the heat up/lock up thang happening just like on my T-Bird.

XR200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURE BY LOCK-UP

Hi milindh: Thanks for your very informative post. Ride safe! Pierre

cntrhub · #7 05-22-2009, 10:02 AM

Pierre, Yes, very informative. (I know, ace, I know) So, Pierre, do you know if someone needed to modify a brand new bike? Say, did they install aftermarket brake levers?

Maybe they pushed the pin in a little on you. Maybe the hole was not deep enough on the lever design. I would put a production lever up against a custom lever. Did we have that lever as a variable?

Counselor, I think you might be hunting for straws. Did I mention the brake design of the caliper's quad ring for; Your client, Peair?

cabinetmartel · #8 05-22-2009, 03:29 PM

XR1200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURE

From Hammerhead Pat: This "allegedly" happened almost nine months ago. Why are you posting now and what are you trying to accomplish on this forum? The bike in question has been available in the US for 4 or 5 months now and I haven't heard of any failures. And when you say "low speed", exactly what speed were you going?

Hi Hammerhead Pat: Thank for the interest. I am trying to get an answer from HD and to avoid new victims. By now, you will no longer say that you have never heard about XR1200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURES! Re the speed, I do not exactly what speed I was going but it was a low speed and the main witness has confirmed in writing. Ride safe. Pierre

cntrhub · #9 05-23-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabinetmartel

XR1200 FRONT BRAKES FAILURE

From Hammerhead Pat: And when you say "low speed", exactly what speed were you going?

Re the speed, I do not exactly what speed I was going but it was a low speed...

10% sort of narrows down a lot of slow speeds in traffic. Now it's a slow speed and not a brisk romp through the corners? Are we changing stories mid shift, Pee Air????

SOME THING IS BEGINNING TO STINK EAR. Do you have any rope you would like to play anti-gravity on? It's an old US expression for someone to GO... UU--------------D -/

cntrhub · #10 05-23-2009, 01:08 AM

I'm just saying. Not telling anyone to tie themselves in a knot knowing how fast they were going in traffic. I would have to estimate that if I could remember the last time before going down.

Credible witness is you would get slaughtered up there. First, I'd ask how much time on two wheels you've had before the brake pull.