Too Much "Slop" between Accel and Decel - Page 3 - Harley Forum

unclepsycho · #21 07-26-2009, 08:24 PM

Thanks for the reply Frisco...

I was looking at that comp-sprocket, and started wondering the exact same thing... there just 'should' not be room to go over the top. but something sure was... at the time I was doing it and just ignoring the racket... I thought in the back of my mind that it was the belt jumping the cog's in the pulley. I measured the compensating sprocket and it would hafta move a little more than 1/2" out to go over center. you cant see the dial but the first measurement is .530 and the second one is 1.025 in the pictures below. So that leads me to think about the long nut, you mentioned it could be tooo long. I have started re-assembly. I am gonna measure everything on that comp-sprocket.

unclepsycho · #22 07-26-2009, 08:48 PM

Holy something else Batman!

Frisco... right on again... It is just physically impossible for that compensator to go over the top unless something else is way wrong......

the ''cup'' that it sets in with the springs fits snug on the shaft. the shaft has a 1" extensiion on there for the fat tire offset... but everything fits right and tight.

as you can see, the comp sprocket would hafta go out past the end of the shaft to go over the top......and that just cant happen when all the parts are in there and tight.(which they were)

so now whut?

I'm gonna put it all back together and ride it again to see what is up. since nothing seems out of the ordinary except for that play in the tranny 'dogs'.

Bigincher · #23 07-26-2009, 09:18 PM

Hey Uncle...
I just read the whole thing here. Now, I'm not the expert that Frisco or Ken are, but as I was reading in the beginning, the first thing that came to my mind was the primary chain. So, forgive me if this is just a way dumb question, but--- what is the means by which the primary chain is kept in proper tension? Is it the old style manually-adjusted nylon block, or do you have an M-6 in there? Or is it even more archaic than that and the adjustment is in the slots of the tranny plate?! Naaa... surely not that simple.
Could the *slop* have been something as simple as a loose primary chain? Please tell me that was the first thing you did, was check that for proper adjustment......

EDIT: Just went back and looked at pics, I see you have the manually adjustable nylon block.

evoKENevo · #24 07-26-2009, 10:01 PM

Here again, frisco/others with more HD experience than me will have better input..but you say that one reading is at .053" and the other is at 1.025", on the comp-sprocket, and I'm THUNKING it LOOKA more like .1025"...and judging (on this end) by the little bit of "shine" on parts shown just can't see ALMOST an INCH difference there. Which is NOT to SAY that the lesser amount COULD'NT be just ENOUGH to queer things...just an observation !!!

EDIT...just read B.I.'s post slipped in while I wuz write'n...and wuz kinda thunking the same thing...maybe !?!

unclepsycho · #25 07-26-2009, 11:57 PM

Big
Thanks for checking in here, and Yup... didnt let ya down, that was the very first thing I adjusted,

and then the final belt too.

Ken
thanks for looking.
I know the picture is fuzzy, dern camera was being wierd...

with the compensator sprocket setting in thier pockets' (for lack of a better word) the point I picked to measure was roughly 1/2" then I turned the comp till the 'hills' were at thier highest points and that was just barely over 1" so there has to be just about 1/2" of travel for that comp sprocket to jump over the top(thats the measurement I was looking for). with every thing in place and tightened down like Frisco pointed out... there aint enuff room to move(I estimate only 3/16" at most for springs compresing). when I put the comp back on the shaft without the 'cap' on there(cap with the springs inside) and turned the comp so the high points were touching each other...you can see that the end of the sprocket extends past the shaft at least 1/4" if not more.... there is no way that thing is "ratcheting" like I thought I was hearing. (I was so hoping it was just this part worn out, so I could replace it, but that would be way too easy)

Thank you for checking this out... I do appreciate every point of view possible looking at this, and offering up suggestions.

SO! I put it all back together.... adjusted everything and went for a ride. Slow at first, make sure no oil is leeking. Then I got out on a straight a way and beat the thing like a red-headed step-child! that 'ratchet' sound was still there, could feel it kinda in my left foot-peg, but couldnt tell where exactly on the bike...(left ear is going deef) it always sounded like the trans was 'shuddering'. I did this about 4 or 5 times to see where the chatter/shudder/ratchet sound was comming from. I touched the clutch fer a second one time to see what that would do, and it just reved higher with no effect on the chatter sound (it continued to 'ratchet, maybe it stopped fer a split second hard to tell). I thought maybe it was in the clutch.

I had ruled out the clutch earlier since it did this before and after the clutch was replaced under warrantee.

the "slop" is the same.

since this ratchet sound only happens at full throttle... I can almost, just almost live with it. The slop feels like the bike telling me it is gonna fail at some point.

Oh well, weekend of wrenching is over, back to work tomorrow. Will have evenings to look at it and maybe figure it out,.

unclepsycho · #26 07-27-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Hi Unc

Awhile ago one of the guys asked about the Comp-Sprock and if it can "ratchet", so-to-speak.. He didn't use that term but, if I recall, that's what he was asking about..
At that time I measured 2 of my Comp-Sprock's and determined that if they are torqued down & spaced correctly there is simply NOT enough space for them to go "over" the cam.. I posted that info..
In-other-words,, it literally Cannot "ratchet"..
If yours IS ratcheting then it is prob NOT torqued down correctly or spaced tooo much..
Sometimes the "NUT" will bottom out on the motor shaft too soon..
I've dealt with both..

When that Cam is in the Valley, after torquing, it should be Much closer and the "travel" of the Spring will simply NOT go far enough to allow ratchet..

BTW--- I measured that "slop" on my 120" and it is a chain not a belt,,,, it's all the same "mechanics" though, so-to-speak..

I left the Comp-Sprock on LiL Suction Cups sickle, I put the 127" in it..
It can hole-Shot as easily as the direct drive Belt Pulleys on the 120" and 93" with No probs..
I gotta say, I really don't see that much diff with Either when I hammer on them..

After reading this and looking at mine with all the measurements etc mentioned above... I guess that's what I am looking for... doing hole-shots without all that racket.... engine and tire noise is fine

, but that gawd awfull ratchet, or chattering sound just dont sound like it is doing the bike any good.

thanks for pointing out this fact that it cant be the comp-sprocket. Saved me from buying one that I dont need.

Now I am back to wondering if the belt is jumping on the pulley? that was one of my first thoughts.

If I can find someone fast enuff I should have them follow and watch./... to see if it is the rear belt

unclepsycho · #27 07-27-2009, 01:55 AM

Frisco

What became of that other guy with the ''ratchet'' sounding problem? did he figure it out or just fade away and not follow up?

just wondering.

frisco-rigid · #28 07-27-2009, 04:21 AM

Hi Unc

It was in the last 3-4 months and I don't remember which Topic it was in and I don't recall the out-come..

A wee more..
Your sliding cam fits directly into the spring unit, yes????, and I think it will just spin, in the spring, before it gets close to climbing over the Sprocket cams..
It just sits in the spring,, nothing holds it hard & fast..
BUT that's all just a moot point cuz as you've proved,, there is Not enough space to climb over anyway..
And both your pieces, Sprocket cams and Sliding cam Cams don't look at all "over-worn" heck, they actually look good..

This ratcheting sound you're hearing,,,, I just don't think it's the rear belt jumping the teeth, naw, I don't think so..

Remember when we talked about the "once in awhile" Neutral you can get with an In-complete shift and how it will usually "jump" into the chosen gear after a few seconds..
Well, I remember a few times that it happened to me and there was a ratcheting sound from the tranny before it decided to finally drop into gear..
It evidently Never harmed anything and I'm not sure what caused that particular ratchet sound..
I'm not sure how that relates to Your ratchet sound but, you know, something to confu,, er, ah, to consider..

Oh yeah,, just remembered,, you also compared it to a "chattering" sound..
A chattering sound is common with a poorly working clutch but usually at take-off, not Full-Tilt Boogie..

Gas Man · #29 07-27-2009, 05:35 AM

Stupid question but you have the final belt at the proper deflection?

When you get the ratcheting sound, does it feel like its loosing power to the ground? And it only happens when you're romping on it?

How did the clutch pack look? Did you take a pack height/thickness check to see if its in spec?

The clutch basket teeth in good condition? I have seen baskets get worn out, granted it was an open belt, but maybe still.

I will have a chopper on the lift early this week, I can see if it has the same slop. Granted it being a big dog with a RSD baker setup, but I can still check.

evoKENevo · #30 07-27-2009, 08:39 AM

Scott:
Pictures are worth 1000 words,even if a little fuzzy...and I see now (after your explaination) where I was looking at them but not seeing...because my head was still focused on the "shiney" spots (indicating wear) on your comp sprocket cams shown in the 2'nd photo of your post #18...me ass-uming you were measureing the differences in wear there...and my not makeing the connection that the needle on your dial indicater had moved a LOT more than I realized between photos in your post #21...sorry 'bout that !!

Frisco:
I'm obviously confused here. All I understand about comp. sprockets is that they're there to "dampen" the torque a bit on the primary system during accell and decell, etc. If I'm reading you right you're saying the comp spocket cams should'nt shift enough in there to actually make contact with each other...yet I'm seeing obvious signs (shiney wear spots) on them that they've been rubbing quite a bit. So I've got to ask if that could be where the "ratcheting" sound and some of the "slop" is coming from...due to the dampening mechanism being "too pooped to participate" up to par, after being "beaten like a red-headed step-child" for awhile now ??

Makes sense to meeee...but,then again,it seems I get distracted more & more by "shiney

things" these days.