Need some help - Harley Forum

#1 05-12-2009, 03:35 PM

Hey Guys ,
Need some help Advice just tore down 05 road king after a ride that ended with my baby and I on the side of the road waiting for the trailer to take us home ( man what took you so long).Any way what I found after tear down was a lean condition on the front cylinder that melted the piston and fused the top ring going to rebuild to 95" and S&S gear drive.The bike has rinehart true duals PCIII tuner that has been on bike for approx 40,000 miles no problems till the BIG melt down I know that I will need to remap the PC for the changes but don't know if I trust this component or should I look to replacing with newer technology ie a closed loop system .let me know if any one has some insight or info on where to do some more research.
Thanks

cntrhub · #2 05-12-2009, 05:22 PM

It might be detonation rather than a slow meltdown. Did you hear anything funny like you went up a grade with a high gear low rpm and kind of heard a knocking session for a few seconds.

The PC ups the fuel not lean it out if you are running for performance. So, that cooler fuel should have helped rather than blame the unit and change to closed loop.

Bad gas? ECU is not advancing the front cylinder? You will have to verify with a timing light to see if that ignition advances.

So, bottom line, how hard, how fast, how much were you pushing it before it went south.

old no. seven · #3 05-12-2009, 08:06 PM

Did the PC III fail and the ECU revert to theH-D map and go extra lean on you? What did the rear cylinder look like?

frisco-rigid · #4 05-12-2009, 08:55 PM

Hey Boof

I like both these guys answers but my mind functions a wee diff..

Perhaps rather than the Elect. components failing, it may have recently developed an intake leak at the Throttle Body to Manifold and/or at the Manifold to Heads connections.. In my experience,, a lean single cylinder (front or rear) will often, though not Always, accompany an intake leak..
So yes,,,, what does the rear cylinder look like.?
That would have leaned your motor immediately causing excessive heat and/or Detonation,,,,,, if,,, that was the prob..

From what I have learned about EFI over the years,, the Wide-Band Closed Loop system is more efficient...................
BUT, (jeeeeze I adore this part) while you have the top end apart and you're throwing in Money, consider re-building with a Carburator..
Then YOU will be in charge of A/F and,, if you ditch the computer entirely,, the Ignition too..

Goodby Bosche Hello Power & Freedom..

Hey Cntrhub
Why is it that sometimes you sound reasonable and make sense and sometimes you write like 13 Monkeys at 7 diff keyboards...??? Hmmmmm.?

cntrhub · #5 05-12-2009, 11:47 PM

Everyone has a hook to a song, rigid. This is my hook. Monkey sea is monkey due me a favor is watch me work...

I like the observation above. One thing that differs is that if the intake is plumbed to both cylinders, I would think the idle would be scotched and an idle complaint would have to be addressed.

That intake leak is the same leak at the rear cylinder. It will take a lean stall at idle if both are plumbed to the two cylinders.

What I like about the hook is to hook line and sink hers is yours; and no offense to anyone's troubleshoot. I am just adding my troubleshoot next to yours.

We be shooting up some threads with a lot of good info and that is the bottom to my line is select a hot thread with the info that sings we are close to that det/lean/???.

1. Is it lean?
2. Is it ignition?

OK, Lean is rub skirts which rubs aluminum; which could rub the ring to seal.

OK, detonation now. We have knocks and holes and pounding of the dome that collapsed the ring land on top of the next land and that second ring might/might not be seized but the top one sure is.

I am going to stick with my detonation = Author said the top ring is locked. That to me reads hammer time on the collapse, ("fused top ring"). I have to pass on the lean angle being IF both cylinders use the same intake manifold as a split for one, poor idle for the other - Especially open loop being super sensitive to leans and idles.

A Pc is a fuel stepper for the most part. If the PC is removed or fails, the stock ECU goes back to OEM, like out of the crate to a crisp running, fast starting, lean, as in fuel injection lean being only one basic number.
It's simple and complex at the same time. Let's just say, no; I do not see stock H-D bikes blowing front cylinders with it's own stock fuel system.

Someone needs to come up with another theory. I have not witnessed the parts. Therefore, it is open and not a shut case. I can only guess at what the author presents as his information (ring lock) and go from there.

It's like we are lapping around a race track. You take the lead. I take the lead. The owner comes back and said the kid left the toy in the air cleaner and guess who sucked the teddy in first?

Something like this ear use is readings is greetings with practical events, rigid.

The Hook/Line/&/Sink/Her is to nail the prob blame Oh, say det and say, "case closed" or is it? I play the odds it's the toy.

OH, btw... What does that wrist pin look like? With the oil being a splash for piston, walls and wrist pin, what else looks questionable; as the rear must look a mess at the skirt marks under the thrust open side. Plus the drop to the open bottom end with that debris off the dome is going to wipe a 360° or two. And the main bearings are churning that piston debris because you cannot create or destroy matter. Just hide it in the bearings/crank/cylinders/piston skirts/etc. You are not done with the parts list...

tommyglide · #6 05-13-2009, 12:30 AM

Greetings Frisco, just curious as to why you are agin EFI if, in fact, YOU can be in charge of afr and timing. Master of your domain, as it were.
Again,,,,, just wondering.

street bob · #7 05-13-2009, 01:00 AM

CNTRHUB..... I mean no disrespect here, seriously, but for the most part..... what the hell did you say????

I also like Frisco's trouble shooting. I've always really like having a carb on my scoots.
My 03' night train and now my 07' street bob are the only scoots I've had with EFI. I did have an issue with my street bob after only 2,000 miles where the fuel pump took a dump on me and I was stranded. Got that taken care of and have had no issues at all with this bike ever sinse..20,000 miles now. Being a panhead owner for 17 years and many other "older" bikes, I do understand being in control of the timing and fuel delivery.

frisco-rigid · #8 05-13-2009, 04:12 AM

Hey Tommy

Your question------
My experience----- Remember,, I don't just state stuff cuz it sounds good, I have REAL reasons for my beliefs & claims..
I fought my Porsche EFI for years.. Changed exhaust, potentiometer settings and intake, chips, injectors, etc etc.. Did most of it myself but still I cannot remember it all..
Every time I asked the same question to EVERY Porsche expert, racer, builder, mechanic, tech,,,,,,, I don't care what ya call em,,, including my good friend that built race motors for several guys at Sears Point---- the answer was the same,,,,,,,,,,, install some Webers.. Period..
I haven't done it yet but I do plan to before I die..

In the regular world I am convinced a carb will provide More seat-of-the-pants power than EFI..
But I realize that in theory, with all the individual cylinder adjustments that can be done with EFI,, then perhaps EFI matches or even surpasses Carbs..
BUT that's Not our regular world..
And I go back to my original claim, You are in charge not an ECU, PC111, blah blah blah..
However I just remembered you have a Very adjustable system huh..
Did you know that ShovelMike once compared me to an Old Fuddy that resists change,,,, Me..???!!

Hey dig-it Nascar still runs Carbs..
OK, Formula 1 uses EFI but can you imagine the sophistication of their product,,,, try to buy that level of tuning and building for your HD motor..

Just for grins & giggles I googled and got a couple interesting tid-bits, this is one from a CarCraft article-----

"""Which makes more power--carburetors or EFI?"""

Butch Bass: A properly sized manifold and carb can make as much absolute power as EFI. Although EFI tends to produce a broader torque curve, ultimate horsepower is simply a case of flow and distribution.

Jim McFarland: If you boil everything down to combustion efficiency, ultimately full-sequential port-EFI systems will make the most power. Carbs are not good providers of mixture quality when tuning one cylinder at a time.

Warren Johnson: Properly tuned, carburetors make more peak power than EFI in a Pro Stock engine. A carb’s pressure differential atomizes the gas a lot better than spraying fuel through an orifice. But EFI has a broader powerband and superior cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution. The 1,100- to 1,300-cfm dual carbs are good only over a narrow range, about 1,500 rpm at most. EFI performs well over 2,000 rpm or more. On average, if optimized, both systems perform about the same as far as how fast you get down the track. However, the EFI system is much easier to tune than a carburetor.

Cntrhub
I think I understand you to say that with an intake leak both cylinders would be affected,, of course "over-all" they are BUT it will affect the cylinder closest to the leaking manifold runner most---- that cylinder will show a lean white plug thus lean and Hot and possibly enable detonation,, where-as the other cylinder may look as normal as before..
I've seen and experienced it many times..
That's certainly with our carb motors.. However....
I had to come and edit cuz I just remembered that with EFI, in the case of an intake leak the 02 sensor will sense the extra 02 and the ECU Might adjust for it..

Twinpeaks · #9 05-13-2009, 06:22 AM

It could very well be a mapping issue. I have had no issues personally but have heard that maps can "fail", "fragment" or "degrade" over time. A lot can happen in 40K. Some guys re-download their map every season just because!
Boofman05 you stated you are running a PCIII, was it dyno tuned or did you download an existing map?
Also, are your pipes old? I had a front cylinder issue once, ran straight pipes at the time, the bottom of the pipe at the turn rusted out and was causing tuning problems. Found the hole by accident but now keep a close watch.

My 2cents on the carb-EFI debate: Properly set-up and properly mapped multi-port fuel injection is the cats ass. Responsiveness and efficiency are at peak. There is also the advantage of the computer compensating constantly for temps, weather, humidity, density ect. But I do miss fiddlin' around.

cntrhub · #10 05-13-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by street bob

CNTRHUB..... I mean no disrespect here, seriously, but for the most part..... what the hell did you say????

I said that you cannot change just the piston without finding out if the debris in the crankcase is mixed with the flying oil splash, it will whip those chunks of parts all inside the engine.
What little returns might find it's way and crush the impellers of the oil pump too. I forgot that major look first is first thing is to clean that oil pump.

I mean, the engine needs to be completely washed and ALL parts cleaned and inspected before reassembly.