If I offended anyone...

[unfknblvbl]

Originally Posted by HarleyCruiser

I believe they were talking about the racial history of our country, talking to a black croud.
I am not that proud of slavery either.

Hell I'm not proud of slavery either, nor am I proud what we did to the Indians.

[HarleyCruiser]

I find this interesting that you have made me the Defender of Obama. Did you read my post 32 in this thread.
(Yes Pun intended)
Aren’t you going to defend McCain? Or do you agree he is a war monger?
My point is it is easer to attack the other candidate than defend yours and neither of these guys are qualified to correct the financial problem our country is having.
As far as the photo, that is pretty funny but that is a split second taken out of context.
Need to see the news clip to authenticate it.
Hell I can get you a picture of Bush picking McCains nose.

Originally Posted by unfknblvbl

No problem.
Hell after doing some more research I may be misinformed on the second part of my last as far as being ashamed of the country and not proud to be Americans. For as far as proper respect towards the flag goes. Like they say pictures are worth a thousand words.

[unfknblvbl]

Originally Posted by HarleyCruiser

I find this interesting that you have made me the Defender of Obama. Did you read my post 32 in this thread.
(Yes Pun intended)
Aren’t you going to defend McCain? Or do you agree he is a war monger?
My point is it is easer to attack the other candidate than defend yours and neither of these guys are qualified to correct the financial problem our country is having.
As far as the photo, that is pretty funny but that is a split second taken out of context.
Need to see the news clip to authenticate it.
Hell I can get you a picture of Bush picking McCains nose.

I have not made you a defender of Obama, you chose to be the defender of Obama.

I read post 32 and that is your opinion. If you feel he would still have us in Vietnam it would be interesting to hear why you think that. I do believe in the saying:

POW/MIA- Bring them home or send us back.

The US should of never left anyone behind. Bad on our nations part. You can bet your last dollar that if the US was to send a hunting party over to Vietnam to find our lost/captive/deceased fellow American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen I would volunteer.

Do I think McCain is a war monger? No I don't, but in my opinion he won't take near as much as crap from anyone else either. Do I think he would come into Washington looking for a fight. No, but I don't think he'd back down from one either. Do I see anything wrong...nope!

I do believe McCain (of the two Nominees) is better qualified just due to overall experience. As far as the finances goes, I don't know about them.

[clif02]

To Defender and all concerned, I must have done something wrong..as it was an incomplete post. To the best of my recollections I've never callled anyone any names, questioned their patriotism or any of that. I have stated my opinion. Defender, thanks for your service. I did 26 active and the last 9 as a civilian training Soldiers. You want to vote for Obama, please do so. I have yet to get any in-depth, realistic answer from any Obama supporter on why he is the best hope for our country or how he is going to greatly change or improve things. They are just true beleivers. I just happen to hold an opposing view and I state that. I have discovered that if you want to get a Democrat or a liberal really excited is to call them a liberal. I have no idea why it insults them as you are what you are. Call me a Conservative or any other littany of names like you did. It really don't bother me. See, I'm for free speech. State your opinion. I guess the biggest problem I have with folks like Obama and Pelosi and the posse of Dems we have in office today is we see America from a different perspective. Instead of seeing America as the land of opportunity they view America as the land of entitlement. I always beleived you work hard and do your best every day you'll be reasonably successful. They see it as if you don't have it so we'll just hand it to you because we think you should have it. They do that by raising taxes and inventing all these silly social programs that make the lazy lazier and even less reliant on themselves. I'm all for improved education, medicine, defense, civil preparedness and all that but am opposed to more givaway programs that make more folks dependent on the government. Its like throwing good money after bad. Its a sad truth that not everyone will be middle class or millionaires. To have a classless society is a socialist state and also a fallacy as proven in the USSR or Cuba. You always will have the those that have, those that have not and those that want to have. Folks get all excited over opposing views but that is exactly what gives America her strength and beauty. Checks and balances. Agree to disagree and reach a concensus. Mr. Obama in my opinion does not have the skill sets, experience or knowledge to change much of anything. In my opinion both he and his wife are elitist that are ready to legislate me and you into being Americans with very little voice and we'll take all of our direction from a kinder and gentler democratic leadership. Mr. Obama has a 7% conservative rating. Thats way to far from the centerline for me to even consider. What you requested amounted to censorship as it offended you. We truly have become what I stated in another post, The United States of the Offended. We all don't agree on every point, but the fact remains we have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression and Freedom of the Press. Try getting the liberal media to be aa little more fair and balanced in their reporting...cause it'll never happen. As for me being all them nice things you said, I'll have to agree with all of em and I feel exactly the same way about you. Have a great day and I hope you find true bliss and happiness elsewhere. When you do join another forum though be sure to stay away from any off topic areas as someone there just may disagree with you. Clif

[HarleyCruiser]

Un, now that is an augment that is hard to argue against, much better than implying in your signature that MOST would interpret as, Obama was a terrorist.
Or as some would interpret it that Obama would be soft on terrorist and allow terrorist attacks because we were weak.
Or as I feel you meant it, voting for Obama would be a bad thing for the country, and you will pay for four years, tong in cheek.
Talking politics on the internet is for the most part fruitless.
Especially when you hurt peoples feelings as you are starting the conversation, and you will never convince them to change there minds, or their votes.
Politics are deeply embedded starting from our childhood, and change with life experiences and knowledge.
Throwing mud only clouds the issue.
Meanwhile we have lost a good poster, who after reading his background, feel he and you could have been good friends if politics had not come into the conversation.

Originally Posted by unfknblvbl

I have not made you a defender of Obama, you chose to be the defender of Obama.

I read post 32 and that is your opinion. If you feel he would still have us in Vietnam it would be interesting to hear why you think that. I do believe in the saying:

POW/MIA- Bring them home or send us back.

The US should of never left anyone behind. Bad on our nations part. You can bet your last dollar that if the US was to send a hunting party over to Vietnam to find our lost/captive/deceased fellow American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen I would volunteer.

Do I think McCain is a war monger? No I don't, but in my opinion he won't take near as much as crap from anyone else either. Do I think he would come into Washington looking for a fight. No, but I don't think he'd back down from one either. Do I see anything wrong...nope!

I do believe McCain (of the two Nominees) is better qualified just due to overall experience. As far as the finances goes, I don't know about them.

[HarleyCruiser]

Steel right now people are pissed. Four dollar gas, high unemployment, wages creeping down, people loosing their million dollar homes they could not afford.
Elections in hard times are always hostile.
Everyone pointing their finger the other way.
Americans need to wake up, we have built our economy on going into debt.
Now we have to pay the piper.

Originally Posted by SteelRider

I understand your point and understand completely.
My position has always been that I do not like EITHER candidate but the same thing happened to me. I was attacked and called a pinko and gawd knows what else. You have to consider who and what you are dealing with. People who have been programmed. They attack. This kind of thinking makes me nervous as all it will ever produce is negative results...Hate and they brag of this, they brag of hating, they wear it like a badge of honor.
This is the divisiveness is tearing our country in two. It is not political debate but hate that never heals.
So Harley Cruiser, you express this opinion and the Neo-Cons call you pinko and the flaming liberals call you a "class act"...attack and hate. You can not discuss any political position with closed minded individuals who hate. Pure and simple.

How does this happen? Is it by accident? There is not much that happens on the National Political Front that happens by accident. We are being set to each others throats and people are too damn stupid and stubborn to realize it....and believe me, it is being done by both sides...HEY! I SAID BOTH SIDES.

[frisco-rigid]

Ooh Boy--- an awful lot was said in the last many posts but I think some have lost sight of this..
I myself have said I don't think Mccain is the best Repub choice but he dang sure is better for the Country than Obama..

Jeeeze,, that's why I've said sooo many times,, I am voting for him cuz he is the least harmful.. I wish I could defend him and state all kinds of wonderful stuff about him..

And Yes indeed I am full of Hate, you bet baby, real Hate..
I have Hate for anyone that will destroy our American way of life.. Anyone that will change America to a Socialist State..
Haven't any of you heard the Obama people say they want to "fundamentally" change America..

That's like saying I love you then trying to change the person totally..
In-other-words you don't really love the person you only love what you might be able to change them into..
HC-- why do you not see the damage you might do by with-holding your vote from Mccain to waste it on a person that has no chance to win..

Yes, loud and proud-- I will harbour Hate and resentment and have Nothing to do with anyone voting for Our Enemy..

[HarleyCruiser]

Originally Posted by frisco-rigid

Ooh Boy---
HC-- why do you not see the damage you might do by with-holding your vote from Mccain to waste it on a person that has no chance to win..

Frisco glad to see you jump in.
Let me say I have nothing but respect for you.
I was a republican before I knew why.
I wore “I like Ike buttons to high school.”
I gave a speech in High School, it started Big government, VS. Little Government.
I voted for Nixon, not ashamed of it.
I have never voted Democratic, for most of the reason that you state.
If you look at a graph in my mind, of rights for the people, you would have communism, socialism, on the left democrats would next to them, you would have your independents in the middle, then the Republicans then the Libertarians to the far right.
I was never a big Ross Perot fan, but must give him credit for bringing to the forefront the need to balance the budget.
We talk about gas being expensive, but compared to milk, the cost of housing, wages for the last forty years, it is still about the same.
It is our dollar that has lost value, because of the federal deficit, loosing the fed, (printing more money) and the foreign trade deficit.
I am not morally against this war, but financially we can no longer afford to police the world.
I was for it when we first went in. Yea let’s go kick their ass. But like most did not realize the cost involved, both financially, emotionally, and the loss of our solders.
I have also seen the strain the wars have put on our country.
Vietnam, Kuwait, now this one. I am glad to see it wind down but the effects/cost will be long felt.
Did we need it, will it protect us, I don’t know, I will let history and people a lot smarter than me decide that.
As much as I hated Clinton at least he had us started on a balanced budget. Yea it meant higher taxes for the people who already pay the most.
But at least, they came close to doing it.
It breaks my heart to say the Democrats have become the financial responsible party.
If I was pushed to vote between Obama, or McCain it would be a hard choice,
Flip a coin.
We have to balance the budget, in all honesty the Democrats have come closer to doing this.
It is easy to say cut out the welfare and balance the budget, but as long as we have welfare recipients voting you will never do this.
And lowering taxes to stimulate the economy and increase commerce and in turn increase the federal revenue, this does not work.
Especially when you spend trillions extra for defense, policing the world.
I know the libertarian party is never going to win the presidential election. At least not as long as people who have no idea who is running, can vote, or people who never contribute to the financial support of our country can vote.
Yea I know I am throwing my vote away, but I have to vote my conscience, in order to live with myself.
Even if it only helps only one person, me.

[frisco-rigid]

Wow, HC-- super duper well stated..!

Quickly I will dis-agree on a couple items..

I 100% disagree that the Dems are ever the financially responsble party..
Clinton balanced the budget in 2 main ways--- he cut military spnding 40% and raised our taxes higher at one time than ever before in peacetime..
That meant a group more money coming in and waaaay less going out, thus-- closing in on a balanced budget..
Cutting taxes Does improve the economy.. What is the economy-- it is US spending our money.. The more we have of OUR own money to spend the more it is in circulation putting folk to work and spending their own money and generating taxes at the same time..
Higher taxes means that WE don't have the money to spend BUT the GOV will be the only entity with dough to spend----- OUR dough..!!

The only thing Ross Perot did for the 1992 election was get Clinton elected because about 15% of the Repubs wasted their votes on him allowing Clinton to win.. HEAVEN forbid that happens this time...!!!

You are correct that we should not be the police to the world ExCEPT when it is Our interest..
The war is horrible and expensive but necessary.. We can NEVER allow an UN-answered attack by anyone whenever they hide and whatever their country of origin.. Hunt them and kill them..
Whoa--- good debate,, yeah baby..!

[chipster]

To both HC and frisco , Bravo and very well stated. I appreciate both schools of thought.

Now mine, and it somewhat ties in with what HC stated about the Dems coming closest to the "balanced budget".

In 1980, Ronald Reagan came to my High School and made a campaign speech. In his speech he stated that the ONLY way to lower prices and inflation was to lower taxes. 5 People were chosen from the audience to ask him a question as long as it was with some basis of thought. I was one of the lucky chosen individuals.

I said, "Mr. Reagan. You propose that the way to lower prices and inflation is to lower taxes. That's an admirable thought, but in all actuallity taxes should be raised. My reasoning is that if you take money out of the peoples hands, the more valuable or dear that money becomes. The less there is of something the more value it has. That is why a 1957 Chevy Nomad wagon is more valuable than a 1977 Chevy Mailbu wagon. There are less Nomads, hence more value. Now would it not be better to RAISE our taxes, taking money out of our hands. Less money in our hands then makes the money more valuable or dear. Hence prices would have to drop, inflation would lower, and financially we ALL would be in better shape."

His response? "I've never thought of that. I'll take it up with my advisors."

I realize that this has become long winded, but I wanted to get my two cents worth in.

I'm not voting for Mr. Obama. Don't believe in him. Never have and never will. But I will support him and his decisions should he get voted into office.